Hydraulics Question

   / Hydraulics Question #1  

Clarke

Silver Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
248
Location
South East Pa.
Tractor
PT425
This morning I connected the mini hoe to do some digging to re-locate and plant. After I removed the mini hoe and connected the pallet forks. The ambient temperature changed quite a bit and I could not get the aux. hydraulic lines to connect without relieving the pressure by loosing the hoses at the cylinder. Is there a fitting or a technique that I don't know about to solve this problem. This has happened several times before when hydraulic quick connects had to be changed.

sg
 
   / Hydraulics Question #2  
Generally, operating the hydraulic controls with the engine off should relieve the pressure. Did you try that?
 
   / Hydraulics Question
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Yep!!

Doesn't work because it is the implement that is the problem..


sg
 
   / Hydraulics Question #4  
Hydraulic fluid is not supposed to be compressible, so it sounds like you may have air or moisture trapped in the mini-hoe hydraulics somehow. Is there any chance of that, and if so, is there any way to bleed that implement?
 
   / Hydraulics Question #5  
One other thought. Does it make any difference if you shut down and operate the hydraulic controls before disconnecting the mini-hoe?
 
   / Hydraulics Question
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Actually this time the problem was the quick attach cylinder that I had to bleed the pressure off. I connected the mini hoe in the morning when it was cool. I worked with the hoe for a couple of hours in the hot sun. I guess the aux. hydraulic cylinder heated up from the sun and I could not connect the hoses without relieving some pressure by loosening the hydraulic lines. I have had the problem in reverse not being able to connect the hoe after a temperature increase.

sg
 
   / Hydraulics Question #7  
Once I left the mini hoe in the sun and it build up pressure and I had to manual relieve it. I have used a technique to relieve the pressure off these lines and it works quickly and easily. If it is a male line just take a light hammer or something and rap it right on the end. If that don’t work rap a little harder. It will work. If it is a female connection use a flat ended punch and something to hit the center button inside the quick connect. If that don’t work rap a little harder. It will work. Stay in the middle and straight with just a little care you won’t hurt anything.
 
   / Hydraulics Question #8  
Craig, we've talked about this in the past, but I did the same thing as you, except I put a rag around the fitting first just in case it should try to squirt any oil out. Of course you don't squirt enough out to amount to anything, but I never wanted to take a chance on any hitting me in the eye. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / Hydraulics Question #9  
Good idea about the rag. I ware glasses all the time so i didn't think about that.
 
   / Hydraulics Question #10  
I had the same problem with my snow plow. Could not get it connected for the life of me. The first time it happened, I cracked a fitting to relieve thepressure. After discussing it here and getting the same tips you have just been given, I now use a large bolt to put against the pin in the fitting, use a rag to hold the bolt and whack the bolt with a hammer. Only a drop of oil comes out, but that is all it takes to relive the pressure.

Does anyone know, while you cannot compress a fluid, does it still expand and contract with temperature? That is the only thing that I can think of that would have caused this. I parked it in the sun for few hours and that is when it happened. I now make it a point to wiggle the aux PTO lever both directions a few times before shutting down and disconnecting. It has never happened since.
 
   / Hydraulics Question #11  
"" does it still expand and contract with temperature ""

Yes.


"If it won't move, force it! If you can't force it, get a bigger hammer!!"

"When you nod your head, I'll hit it!!"


Sorry about your toe, but it could have been your head or your ~~~~!! "There's always room for worse!!"

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Hydraulics Question #12  
Thanks! That shot to the toe was the biggest hammer I've tried so far. I've got a few bigger ones on the shelf. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / Hydraulics Question #13  
Yes, hydraulic fluid will expand with temp, and cause a vacuum with lower temp, and if left in the wrong position, even suck in rain water or air.

To solve the problem of hard to connect quick disconnect, insert a tee fitting in line and put a cap on the tee. Just loosen the cap to relieve the pressure. It works every time.

The tee can be installed at the plug, or the cyl. It is also a good place to put a pressure gauge .

Some Quick disconnects are designed to connect under pressure. Most are not.
 
   / Hydraulics Question #14  
This has happenrd to me several times where the hydraulic quick connects can't connect. Most of the time it occurs when I leave my bucket out in the sun. The oil in the cylinders heat up and pressurize the closed circuit. I have disconnected a hose to let off pressure. The best way is to cool the cylinder and hoses down with ice water. After ten minutes you can connect with ease.
SMJ
 
   / Hydraulics Question #15  
I keep a small 8 inch rod and small hammer with me. When the hydraulic quick connect can't connect I insert the rod and tap with the hammer. Small amount of oil comes out releiving the pressure.
PJ
 
   / Hydraulics Question
  • Thread Starter
#16  
Thanks for all the replys. I don't know which method I will use. I will try all..

sg
 
   / Hydraulics Question #17  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Does anyone know, while you cannot compress a fluid, does it still expand and contract with temperature?)</font>

MR,
Your query got me to wondering about the effects of temperature on the pressure in a resting hydraulic cylinder. I hope this contribution doesn’t insult anyone's intelligence on the Forum. As I scratched around, this is what I came up with.

For sure, in all the courses, manuals, books, etc. on the subject of hydraulics, we are constantly bombarded with the “fact” that liquids are incompressible, and that this is basis of hydraulic systems. Well, actually all liquids ARE indeed compressible, although to a much lesser extent than gases are. The compressibility of a liquid can be measured in the lab, as can a liquid’s ability to expand when it is heated (dilatometry). Both compressibility and “expansibility” are unique properties of a substance that are determined by its chemical composition/structure.

The compressibility of hydraulic fluid is quite small, but it is not zero. Because it is so small, the reciprocal of the compressibility coefficient, a large number, is seen more frequently. This reciprocal is called the bulk modulus, <font color="green"> beta, </font> which is a measure of a fluid’s resistance to compression. The unit of measurement for the coefficient of bulk modulus is <font color="green"> pressure </font>. For hydraulic fluid, the average coefficient of bulk modulus is 250,000 psi. More on that number in a minute…

All “normal” substances expand when heated and contract when cooled (water is an exception at freezing, and that’s why ice floats). The coefficient of thermal expansion, designated <font color="red"> alpha,</font> for mineral-based hydraulic oil is on the order of 0.00064. The unit of measurement for the expansion coefficient is 1/T, the <font color="red"> reciprocal of temperature </font>.
Expansion of Oil

In the problem being discussed in this thread, we are considering changes in PRESSURE as a function of changes in TEMPERATURE, keeping the volume constant. That is, the hydraulic fluid is trapped in a constant volume hydraulic cylinder, and heat is being applied to it from outside. In reality, however, we have to also consider the hoses, which of course can distend somewhat as the pressure rises. Not surprisingly, it turns out that the effective bulk modulus for hydraulic fluid in a system with rigid steel cylinders coupled with somewhat distensible hoses is LESS than its absolute bulk modulus. The combined bulk modulus for hydraulic oil plus high pressure hose is on the order of 47,500 psi.

Fluidpower Journal

Where the heck is all this going, you ask?

The formula which brings all this together is quite straightforward:
<font color="blue">dP/dT</font> = <font color="red"> alpha </font> x <font color="green"> beta </font>
That is, the change in Pressure per degree change in Temperature is given by the product of multiplying the coefficients of bulk modulus and thermal expansion. The result is a number whose units of measurement are psi/degree.

Using the average numbers above for hydraulic fluid,
dP/dT = 0.00064 x 47,500 = 30.4 psi/degree C rise in the actual oil temperature.

As we all recognize, there are a myriad of additional contributing factors, such as state of well being of seals (leak down), heat sink value of the mass of metal in the hydraulic cylinder, etc. that will affect the actual rise in Pressure in a given situation. Notwithstanding, these coefficients do explain how and why pressure build-up can occur in hydraulic cylinders which are exposed to heat, and they help us to quantify the magnitude of the change. If changes are too great, installation of relief valve, etc. may be in order
Hydraulic Decompression
 
   / Hydraulics Question
  • Thread Starter
#18  
In other words if we disconnect an implement at 50F or 10C let it in the sun to heat to 95F or 35C we will have to deal with a pressure of 760PSI makes it impossible to connect without beating the crap out it with a hammer.

sg
 
   / Hydraulics Question #19  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( beating the crap out it with a hammer )</font>

I never had to do more than one sharp rap on one.
 
   / Hydraulics Question #20  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ...makes it impossible to connect without beating the crap out it with a hammer)</font>

Well put! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Bird can do it with one well placed hit, but he's one of our superstars.
 

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