hydro electric power?

   / hydro electric power? #1  
M

muddstopper

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western NC
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Sitting around trying to research hydropower . My wife and I are about to start building our retirement home. Shes wanting a small house, 600sqft or so. I aint buying it and am thinking 900sqft or so. Anyways, we do have a small creek on the property with about 75ft of head. I will have to bury about 1000ft of pipe. Stream flows year round and I can pull about a 4in pipe full of water off of it without degrading the stream. 75ft of head will give me about 32psi at the turbine and with the amount of flow, I should be able to run at least a 2 jet or larger turbine. The one thing I havent been able to find info on is the siphon effect of the water as it runs downhill thru the pipe. Here are my concerns. 1st, I plan on using a concrete septic tank to catch water at the head. From the concrete tank, water will be gravity fed thru 3in pipe, to reduce friction losses, to the pelton wheel at the generator. Once the water is piped to the generator, it will be tee'd to the jets. Havent decided on jet size yet. My concern is that the water just flowing thru the pipe, will it create a suction that could pull the water level down in the water holding tank. Water running into the tank should equal water running out of the tank if entrance into tank is equal to exit out of tank, but then you have approx 32psi of siphon action which makes me wonder, will I need more water entering the tank to satisfy the need of a turbine that is situated 75ft below the head. You would think that some of the hydro sites on the web would talk about this, but I havent found anything. Maybe its because its a none issue, but in my mind, it looks like it could be an issue.
 
   / hydro electric power? #2  
Non issue. No siphon.

You have to insure that the input to the septic tank is equal to the output from the turbine. Means the turbine has to be sized to the stream flow.
 
   / hydro electric power?
  • Thread Starter
#3  
No siphon=good for me. While I (meaning she) havent settled on a house design. I think for where we are and the available water source, hydro just makes sense. I have s a sort of plan for the hydro system to be multi use. Using a large holding tank at the head should ensure sediment and trash are minimal to reduce wear on the pelton wheel. I also intend to have another large water box where the water collects after the generator. The water temps seem to be pretty stable, around 57*F year round. I plan on placing a heat exchanger inside the lower water box and use a low pressure,/low voltage recirculating pump, in a closed loop system, to provide cooling for air conditioning in the summer. I will also be using solar collectors in the summer to heat the hot water, supplemented with wood heat for heating the water as well as the house in winter. I have built a couple of such heating/cooling systems in the past for friends with varying degrees of success. I dont plan on sharing any of my hydro generated power with the power company simply because they wont pay me for it, but I should be able to generate more power than I use. I do plan on being hooked to the grid just encase i need to service my system.
 
   / hydro electric power? #4  
Around here we would need to be hooked to the grid 365 days/year and the service charges to use the grid for 2-3 days/year would be horrendous. Could you not make do with a genny for service days?
 
   / hydro electric power?
  • Thread Starter
#5  
OH, I'll be hooked 24/7/365, but The breaker will be tripped. Pay for what ever power of theirs I need, just wont let my system back feed into theirs. Used to you could get a meter that could run backwards, and you still can if you want to pay extra for it, but several years ago they swapped all the meters out to where they dont run backwards anymore. They will take your power, if you jump thru all their hoops, but they bank the extra power for you, not pay for it. If you need their power, you get to withdraw your power from the bank, but if you produce more than you use, you never get to make a withdrawal and they keep your power. I'll have access to their power and if my system goes down, all I will have to do is flip the breaker.
 
   / hydro electric power? #6  
muddstopper said:
OH, I'll be hooked 24/7/365, but The breaker will be tripped. Pay for what ever power of theirs I need, just wont let my system back feed into theirs. Used to you could get a meter that could run backwards, and you still can if you want to pay extra for it, but several years ago they swapped all the meters out to where they dont run backwards anymore. They will take your power, if you jump thru all their hoops, but they bank the extra power for you, not pay for it. If you need their power, you get to withdraw your power from the bank, but if you produce more than you use, you never get to make a withdrawal and they keep your power. I'll have access to their power and if my system goes down, all I will have to do is flip the breaker.
Click to expand...


I thought the Feds mandated Net Metering meaning that the power company has to pay for power you put into the lines (but only at the wholesale price not retail prices.)???

M
 
   / hydro electric power? #7  
muddstopper said:
Sitting around trying to research hydropower . My wife and I are about to start building our retirement home. Shes wanting a small house, 600sqft or so. I aint buying it and am thinking 900sqft or so. Anyways, we do have a small creek on the property with about 75ft of head. I will have to bury about 1000ft of pipe. Stream flows year round and I can pull about a 4in pipe full of water off of it without degrading the stream. 75ft of head will give me about 32psi at the turbine and with the amount of flow, I should be able to run at least a 2 jet or larger turbine. The one thing I havent been able to find info on is the siphon effect of the water as it runs downhill thru the pipe. Here are my concerns. 1st, I plan on using a concrete septic tank to catch water at the head. From the concrete tank, water will be gravity fed thru 3in pipe, to reduce friction losses, to the pelton wheel at the generator. Once the water is piped to the generator, it will be tee'd to the jets. Havent decided on jet size yet. My concern is that the water just flowing thru the pipe, will it create a suction that could pull the water level down in the water holding tank. Water running into the tank should equal water running out of the tank if entrance into tank is equal to exit out of tank, but then you have approx 32psi of siphon action which makes me wonder, will I need more water entering the tank to satisfy the need of a turbine that is situated 75ft below the head. You would think that some of the hydro sites on the web would talk about this, but I haven't found anything. Maybe its because its a none issue, but in my mind, it looks like it could be an issue.
Click to expand...
Here is one site: Power calculations for Pelton turbines
You might be better of with the energy banking arrangement. The turbine will not generate high power so in example if the electric heat or AC is used it will not cover its power requirement.
 
   / hydro electric power?
  • Thread Starter
#8  
I have researched hydro power for some time now. Net metering only works if you if you let the power company hold all the cards. yes they will give you credit for the power you produce, at wholesale pricing, and then they charge you full price to buy your power back. I guess thats the price you pay for using there infrastructure, and I'm ok with that. But heres the rub. If you produce more power than you use, they get to keep it, giving you nothing. Around here, the Tennessee Valley Authority, (TVA), controls all the power. In order to hook alternative power sources to their grid, you have to build according to their specs. Now I can see them wanting to protect there folks not wanting you back feeding power down the system and all that, but they also want to tell you just how big of a system you can build. When building a new home with intentions of producing your own power, the TVA wants to tell you what size house to build, how you will insulate it, what kind of windows you can install, how big a power system you can build, what kind of system you can use and a host of other hoops to jump thru, or they wont let you hook your system to their grid. If you have a older house already built, and want to add a few solar panels to it, its OK, go ahead, just let us know so we can inspect it when your done. If it sounds like I have a grudge against the power company, its because i do.

While we plan on a smaller energy efficient house, I also plan a large, high energy using shop. I have equipment that will require more power than I think I can produce. My shop work would be in spurts, a few hours today, none tommorrow, maybe a little next week, that sort of thing. For this reason, the net metering makes sense as I would be banking power when I wasnt working in the shop, and then just withdraw that power when I need it. With hydro, you produce power 24/7, not just when the sun is shining. It cost a little more to use battery storage than it does to bank your power with the power company, but batteries are the route I have chosen. I dont plan on living forever and one good battery bank will probably out live me. Batteries are more reliable than the power grid. Where I will be building the house, it will be the last home on the line. If the power goes out anywhere, it will be out at my house. We lived there for years and I know how long the power can be off in that area. Using net metering, with no battery backup, might keep you in lights for a while when the grid goes down, but you would certainly be limited to the amount of power you can use. With battery storage, you are only limited to the size of the storage your batteries can provide.
 
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