Hydro or Gear?

[rScotty]

At the other end of the spectrum from that terrible type of powershift I just mentioned that has only a torque converter and no foot clutch there is Kubota's HST+ transmission in their M59 TLB. It has a HST transmission with six forward ranges, six reverse ranges, adjustable attack, selectable auto-throttle up and auto idle down, and best of all.... this is a HST with a foot clutch over-ride. With this transmission the loader operator can use HST for inching or use the foot clutch, or both simultaneously. That ought to be enough features for delicate loader work to please anyone.
rScotty

 

[RickB]

That is funny. There is a thread on another forum asking whether a torque converter or hydrostatic transmission is preferred for wheel loaders. The majority of responses favor the TC transmission which has been the cornerstone drivetrain for wheel loaders, industrial TLBs and vehicle automatic transmissions for over half a century. Obviously not everyone thinks a TC transmission is terrible.

 

[4570Man]

I liked the toque converter transmission in my 310. Mine was nothing like what Scottie describes. Maybe you couldn’t move a 1/4 inch with it but 1 inch at a time was easily doable. I didn’t have any trouble maintaining a slower speed than it would go in the lowest gear either. It was a lot more precise than a foot clutch. And I had instant use of every gear that the HST doesn’t offer.

 

[k0ua]

To the Original Poster. As you can see there are a lot of "onions" here about "which is best". There is NO "best". Each design has advantages and disadvantages. BUT for a newby that DOES NOT KNOW what he wants, I still think my "if you have to ask, you need a hydro" fits about 99% of the applications. If you have experience you DO NOT have to ask someone what transmission to get. You KNOW the type of transmission you want and which one will fit the applications you want to use it for. If you are a newby, I assume you want to work around your place doing some loader work, maybe some bush hogging, maybe some grapple or fork work. I DON'T KNOW how you are going to use your tractor, and the trouble is you don't either. So Hydro fills the bill most of the time. Plus you wife or kid can jump on it an with about 10 seconds of hands on demo, can operate the thing SAFELY. That isn't always true for other transmissions which have a longer learning curve. So, "if you have to ask..."

 

[RickB]

To the Original Poster. As you can see there are a lot of "onions" here about "which is best". There is NO "best". Each design has advantages and disadvantages. BUT for a newby that DOES NOT KNOW what he wants, I still think my "if you have to ask, you need a hydro" fits about 99% of the applications. If you have experience you DO NOT have to ask someone what transmission to get. You KNOW the type of transmission you want and which one will fit the applications you want to use it for. If you are a newby, I assume you want to work around your place doing some loader work, maybe some bush hogging, maybe some grapple or fork work. I DON'T KNOW how you are going to use your tractor, and the trouble is you don't either. So Hydro fills the bill most of the time. Plus you wife or kid can jump on it an with about 10 seconds of hands on demo, can operate the thing SAFELY. That isn't always true for other transmissions which have a longer learning curve. So, "if you have to ask..."

Very good response.

 

[rScotty]

That is funny. There is a thread on another forum asking whether a torque converter or hydrostatic transmission is preferred for wheel loaders. The majority of responses favor the TC transmission which has been the cornerstone drivetrain for wheel loaders, industrial TLBs and vehicle automatic transmissions for over half a century. Obviously not everyone thinks a TC transmission is terrible.

I didn't say it was terrible. I think I even said for industrial use the TC is fine. What I did say is that TC it isn't as good as the other types of transmission for making the kind of small precise movements with the FEL that smaller tractors do all the time.....precise things like using forks to take a pallet load of bricks out of the bed of a nice family pickup truck. For taking that same pallet off a dump truck the TC is fine. Nobody minds a few dents in a dump truck.
rScotty

 

[CobyRupert]

.....Each design has advantages and disadvantages. BUT for a newby that DOES NOT KNOW what he wants, I still think my "if you have to ask, you need a hydro" fits about 99% of the applications. If you have experience you DO NOT have to ask someone what transmission to get. You KNOW the type of transmission you want and which one will fit the applications you want to use it for.
...
...So, "if you have to ask..."

^That.

On a similar...but different question...are the PTO’s on hydros (and others) gear driven “direct” (through a clutch) from the motor?
Any tractor’s have their PTO driven through hydraulics?
Would that be called a torque converter?

 

[4570Man]

I didn't say it was terrible. I think I even said for industrial use the TC is fine. What I did say is that TC it isn't as good as the other types of transmission for making the kind of small precise movements with the FEL that smaller tractors do all the time.....precise things like using forks to take a pallet load of bricks out of the bed of a nice family pickup truck. For taking that same pallet off a dump truck the TC is fine. Nobody minds a few dents in a dump truck.
rScotty

My TC backhoe didn’t behave that way. There was no standing on the brakes and there was no lurching forward and there was no skidding sideways unless you accidentally hit one side while already moving. My TC offered very similar performance to a automatic trans pickup. A light tap on the brakes was all it took to resist the forward movement and you could feather off and start moving as gently as you wanted. No it wasn’t an equal to the HST but it was plenty good enough for what it was. It was a lot more precise than a clutch. If I had forks on the 310 I wouldn’t hesitate to unload a pickup bed with it. Not that I have a regular bed pickup anyway. Most forklifts have the same TC trans. If I had forks on the 310 I’d rather unload with it vs the 95 Kubota I had for a while ( didn’t own it ) or a forklift. The 95 had very good visibility down low but at pickup bed height the SSQA plate blocked most of your visibility. And I didn’t like moving pallets with the 95. You had to move at a snails rate or it shook them apart. The 310 moved a lot smoother. And a forklift doesn’t have the reach to load a truck without a couple of stab and drags.

 

[ptsg]

I didn't say it was terrible. I think I even said for industrial use the TC is fine. What I did say is that TC it isn't as good as the other types of transmission for making the kind of small precise movements with the FEL that smaller tractors do all the time.....precise things like using forks to take a pallet load of bricks out of the bed of a nice family pickup truck. For taking that same pallet off a dump truck the TC is fine. Nobody minds a few dents in a dump truck.
rScotty

What are you doing with your loader that requires that much precision? Inserting coins on vending machines or something? :laughing:

 

[4570Man]

What are you doing with your loader that requires that much precision? Inserting coins on vending machines or something? :laughing:

All the time. I don’t like using the jacks on my trailer so I set it on the hitch with the loader, I load truck pretty often, I spread topsoil against houses and pretty much touch the house with the bucket, pickup brush off grass without hurting the grass, slide pallet forks under stuff without touching it. And that’s not even getting into what I do with the backhoe.

 

[ptsg]

All the time. I don’t like using the jacks on my trailer so I set it on the hitch with the loader, I load truck pretty often, I spread topsoil against houses and pretty much touch the house with the bucket, pickup brush off grass without hurting the grass, slide pallet forks under stuff without touching it. And that’s not even getting into what I do with the backhoe.

Same here. I was just messing with rScotty.

I also do stuff like that with my geared tractor just as easily. With my backhoe I take precision stuff even further.

 

[RickB]

I didn't say it was terrible. I think I even said for industrial use the TC is fine. What I did say is that TC it isn't as good as the other types of transmission for making the kind of small precise movements with the FEL that smaller tractors do all the time
rScotty

There is a reason I am apt to quote som TBN members. It relates to their short memory.
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that not everyone else will agree, and some readers without experience rely on others who they think have experience broader than their own.

 

[RickB]

^That.

On a similar...but different question...are the PTO痴 on hydros (and others) gear driven 電irect (through a clutch) from the motor?

Almost without exception.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Tough crowd. Both of you!

I'd rather think that 4570Man was simply demonstrating the grammatically correct use of an elliptical sentence to break the tedium of the prosaic rules of grammar that we normally observe on this board when leveling a thinly veiled insult against another member. :laughing:

YOU AGAIN ??? :rotfl:

 

[Steppenwolfe]

There is a reason I am apt to quote som TBN members. It relates to their short memory.
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that not everyone else will agree, and some readers without experience rely on others who they think have experience broader than their own.

Agreed... which is why no one should claim an HST will do anything better than a shuttle shift gear drive. It is simply Vanilla vs Chocolate.

 

[4570Man]

There is a reason I am apt to quote som TBN members. It relates to their short memory.
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that not everyone else will agree, and some readers without experience rely on others who they think have experience broader than their own.

I think that maybe we need to observe a possible difference in TC transmissions. The one in my 310 worked perfectly smooth. To be honest I’d about rather have it over the HST+ in my M59 and the HST+ is the best HST trans in the industry. The only thing gained by the HST that’s pretty nice is the crawl lever while sitting backwards. The shuttle in the old case backhoe I posted a picture of in another thread didn’t work good at all. It was similar performance to a stick in the floor geared transmission. Most forklifts are a TC transmission that also work perfectly smooth. Scottie’s backhoe has over 6000 hours. It’s best days are probably behind it. No offense to his backhoe but just saying it’s probably not an accurate indication of all of them.

 

[RickB]

Possibly. But branding the type as terrible is not widely accepted as accurate. I used a Michigan wheel loader years back that had a TC transmission and no brakes. When you let off the throttle you also had no steering. That does not make torque converters, Michigan loaders or Detroit Diesel engines terrible. But that particular loader sure was.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

There is a reason I am apt to quote som TBN members. It relates to their short memory.
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that not everyone else will agree, and some readers without experience rely on others who they think have experience broader than their own.

THAT'S an absolute fact on this channel for sure!!

SR

 

[Fallon]

^That.

On a similar...but different question...are the PTO’s on hydros (and others) gear driven “direct” (through a clutch) from the motor?
Any tractor’s have their PTO driven through hydraulics?
Would that be called a torque converter?

No. They are all gear driven. Gear driven is in the high 90s for efficiency & uses relatively simple gears. Hydraulic tops out at around 85% efficiency & requires pretty precision pumps & motors. Skid steeres & other machines use hydraulics to power impliments, but if you can use a PTO it's a fair bit more efficient.

A HST needs a small charge pump to send fluid to the actual HST pump. That small pump as well as the general hydraulic losses means a gear drive machine is more efficient at putting the power to the ground & loses less HP sitting still just running a PTO impliment. The ease & precision of control for the HST drive makes up for it in many people's eyes though.

A HST is really just a variable hydraulic pump connected to a fixed hydraulic motor. They are much more precision units than the relatively crude gear pumps used to run the rest of the hydraulics on a tractor. They share a common sump & fluid but are otherwise separate systems.

A HST system really doesnt permit any slip between the pump & motor parts. A torque converter does. They are both hydraulic systems to couple a drivetrain to a motor but are very different in operation. There are some good YouTube videos out there on how they work if you are interested. Also good & somewhat related research is open center vs closed center hydraulics.

 

[rScotty]

While we are batting the breeze with our favorite - and not so favorite - transmissions, it looks like the OP has moved on and never did get back to the group on what kind of tractor work he expected to do with the prospective L2501..... whether it was for mowing, tillage, or even whether he was going to put a loader on it.

As K0ua says back in post #64, that might be because he is a newby and doesn't yet know these things himself.
rScotty