Hydro vs Gear Trans?

   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #41  
Rat,
By no means did I mean to say that I farmed the whole place with the 4600 just that it is one of the tractors that is used to help with it. I just traded my Massey away for a 4020 that does the big work like discing fields and such. I also have the deutz too. I do use the 4600 for things like planting grass and alfalfa as I've just got the smaller seeder and can't justify buying a bigger one. I can pull my square baler with it and it works great for my corn picker and my feed grinder too. It's a nice little buddy to have but would no way take care of all of this.

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #42  
MattCole:

You've been given lots of good advice here, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyhow.
Hydro tranny = hobby tractor, no SERIOUS pulling capabillity, and extensive horsepower loss at the rear wheels. I believe hydraulics are fantastic when used in the proper application. But powering a tractor with a hydraulic pump and motors leaves me cold.
To me (again my opinion) a gear drive tranny can't be beat! Both in terms of longevity and performance.

Terry
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #43  
My International 2500B is a hydro and it has plenty of serious pulling capacity. It is hardly a hobby tractor. It is an industrail strength loader with a 3pt hitch. Step on the forward pedal to go forward, reverse pedal to back up. Power steering for tight quarters. It is not meant to be run at constant ground speed over great distances like an agricultural tractor, although it could. It has a great draft control. In my opinion, a compact utility tractor is a compromise between an agricultural tractor and an industrial loader, combining some of the best features of both. Anyone considering a new tractor purchase should first consider what type of work they are going to do now, and what would they want to do in the future.

I bought my 2500B used for the purposes of excavating a road, clearing out alot of trees, brush hogging between rows of trees in a plantation for a few years until they grew up over the weeds, then selling it. That is all I wanted out of it. A smaller compact utility tractor could not have done the job in the amount of time that I wanted to devote to those projects. My intention was to sell it after completing those projects and buy a smaller compact utility tractor.

My needs in a compact tractor now, and in the future are listed in order of frequency below:
1. mow the lawn around my house once a week.
2. plow the snow in my driveway in winter.
3. mow the trails on my property several times a year.
4. haul logs out of the woods several times a year.
5. rototill the garden several times a year.
6. occasionally excavate flower beds.
7. maintain my road.

I see no need for a gear transmission in any of these activities. I believe that a hydro with power steering will fit the bill perfectly and in 20 years my knees, shoulders and wrists will thank me.



<font color=green> MossRoad </font color=green>
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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #44  
Terry - Preferences are one thing, but misinformation is quite another. Since you obviously didn't read the links I referred to, here's a pertinent quote from one of them.

<font color=blue>As far as tractive force is concerned, consider this: My tractor (an L4310HST) has 19.5" wide Michelin XM27 radials on the back aired down to 9 psi with about 50 gallons of ballast in each tire, 11" wide Michelin radials on the front, a double-weight 4-in-1 bucket on the loader, an overhead canopy/console, a 2,000 pound Bradco backhoe on the back, and all kinds of extra weight in accessories. Still, I can put the bucket against a tree and dig 4 holes in normal ground with the tires. What would I do with more power?</font color=blue>

With all the modifications I made to that L4310HST before I sold it, the HST was one of the few things left untouched - it was completely stock. As I said in the above quote, just exactly what would I do with more tractive power? If it's pulling for an extended period of time you're talking about, the same L4310HST would scarify hard red clay soil to a depth of 12", something my father's neighbor with several large 2wd tractors was willing to bet it wouldn't do. It not only did it, but it did it for 3 hours straight on a 90-degree day. Dad's neighbor said he wouldn't even dream of trying to do it with his 55-hp farm tractor. Admittedly, it's 2wd, with smaller tires, but if anything that would just show up the weakness of my HST transmission. Except that there wasn't any to show up.

As I said, opinions are fine. Praise gears all you want, feel free to like whichever you want, (Scruffy, I respect your choice completely... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif), but if you choose to attempt to elevate the status of gear transmissions by denigrating hydrostatics, only the facts will do - but I'm afraid they won't serve your purpose at all.

MarkC
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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #45  
Terry, maybe before you throw in your 2 cents (you overcharged) you should try a hydrostatic. Its obvious, you have not as evidence by your lack of knowledge about it. In fact, as little as you know about the hydrostatic and misleading your thoughts about them are makes me wonder how a computer ever become part of your curriculum, you seem very old school. "No serious pulling ability", well Mark summed it up, argue with him or argue with me, you'll never convince most of us that have both hydro's and gear drive tractors that a gear drive is superior. Folks looking to save a few bucks and don't need the manuverability of changing to forward/reverse or superior control are perfectly suited to a gear drive, don't think of trying to convince me you've added even 2 cents worth of advice to perspective tractor owners, my 2 cents of advice would be to pay no attention to "raptor", Rat...
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #46  
MarkC

To each his own. Obviously it's evident which camp I pitch my tent in. There are merits to both hydro and gear, that's why both are offered, and it's up to the potential buyer to decide which one is correct for his or her application. My needs eliminate a hydro tranny.
Perhaps it's the ubiquitous whine of the hydrostatic transmission that has put me off from them. It sounds like it's destroying itself (IMO), I precieve it to be somewhat stalled, and converting usefully horsepower to heat, and heat to self destruction.
You obviously have facts relavant to support your postion. Bully for you, my thoughts, opinions, statements won't deter you in the slightest. I wish you continued good luck in your agriculture equipment endeavors.

Terry
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #47  
As usual Mark, your facts have been ignored by the those who know so little about what they say. Terry has a 61 Massey tractor, hardly a tractor to make one an authority with the exceptions of the shortcomings of 2WD and how slow it is to shift from forward to reverse and back again. First tractor I ever drove was a Massey. It was a great tractor and I loved using it. That was back in 1972. Todays 4WD compacts have so much more ability then yesterdays old 2WD "skip loaders". My big ol International 2WD with GEARS, lots of gears and lots more weight cannot compete with my Kubota unless its who can get stuck the fastest. Rat...
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #48  
Fellow,
We have a very nice forum here. We need to keep it that way. Some of the last few posts are examples how all out flame wars have been started with a lot of very hard feeling. We don't need that. Colors or transmissions, to each his or her own. I like the manual along with some other, but some prefer hydros. We should each be able to give examples or opinions and still be civil and friendly. And that my full 2 cents worth.

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #49  
Rat:

You are obviously very passionate that a hydrostatic transmission is best by far, good for you. There is nothing wrong with a strong belief, stick to it. I'll likewise stick to my preference regarding a gear tranny.
By the way, you correctly analysis me as, "old school", I am, without apology for it. I have a lot to learn regarding the use of a computer as you note, but have capable tutors, and feel they can assist me in my endeavor. Best regards, and happy and safe tractoring.

Terry
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #50  
Terry - Well, ok, they do whine and it does take a little getting used to, but they aren't hurting themselves - so you have to get used to it. Unless, of course, you refuse to, which is your option...

And, well, ok, they do convert more energy to heat, but it's a lot less than most people think, they're designed to, can handle it better without damage, and have the ability to control the power that's left so much better that, in most cases, you have more usable power than you do with other transmission types.

I'm really not trying to put too fine an edge on this, but I still disagree with the way you put it your position. Your needs don't eliminate a hydro, your preferences do. You may think your needs do, but I still submit that if you do, you're mistaken - i.e. your impressions of hydrostatics are in error. Again, it makes no difference to me what your, or anyone else's, preference is, but I hate to see someone with a preference based upon misinformation, whether deliberate, or accidental. If I perceive that you're in the latter camp, I think it's my duty, as one who knows better, to correct the misunderstanding. As I said before, like what you want, but please don't attribute your preference to facts that don't exist - as a related issue, it tends to mislead others. (I hate GM products, for example, a prejudice I never try to impose on others because I realize it's completely baseless from a factual standpoint, and so absolutely worthless to anyone but me. It's kind like "what's your favorite (or least favorite) NFL team" if you don't live near one. Arguing over it is pretty stupid, because facts are generally nonexistent or at least irrelevant.)

Or in other words, a disagreement over preference is, I admit, a waste of time, but discussions, disagreements, even arguments, over facts, are the basis of knowledge and understanding.

MarkC
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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #51  
MarkC

Very well put, thank you for the gentle guidance.

Terry
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #52  
Rat - I've driven a couple dozen different kinds of tractors, too, and I understand your point. I plan on restoring my Dad's old Ferguson some day, when he's done with it. But I'll never use it for anything. As a work machine, it's worthless. To me. There are lots of folks around here still using them, because they don't know better, or because nostalgia is more important to them than safety or getting the work done. That's fine, as long as they don't try to tell someone else that a Ferguson is the best machine within earshot of me. If they claim to base that opinion on anything other than pure personal preference, I'm going to contest it, because they're simply mistaken. I want an old John Deere to restore, too, but it has nothing to do with doing real work with it - their time for that has come and gone.

The trouble with opinions is that they're too easy to come by, and we always think we're right - I mean, wouldn't it be stupid to have an opinion if you didn't think it was right? Kinda like not finding something in the last place you looked because you kept looking after you found it... An example I've used a number of times is 4-in-1 buckets. Now I know they're not a worthwhile investment for everyone, but every time I've ever been asked why I wanted a 4-in-1 bucket on my Kubota, I always answered with a question: "You haven't spent much time using a 4-in-1 bucket, have you?" And the answer has always been "No." (Well, to be fair, it turned out to be no in one case where a guy thought 2 hours with a rental machine was a lot...) Yet, still, we always think our opinions are correct, no matter how little experience they're based on, otherwise we'd have a different one. That's why I always ask anybody with an opinion differing from mine how much varied experience they've got. If it's more than mine, I'm listening, if not, well, it depends on how much time I've got and how patient I feel.

Put another way: Taking the long, wrong, way to work for 10 years after a new road has been constructed because you hate change may give you a lot of experience, but it doesn't make you a good person to ask for the shortest route, no matter how strongly you feel about it.)

My problem (well, ok, one of them) is that I become absolutely obsessive about stuff like this. When I decided to get rid of the Kubota, I called everybody I could find who made anything in the 60-hp class of TLB and my first question was whether they made anything in that class that was hydrostatic. Most of them do. My next question involved crab steering and that ended the conversation. Thus came my little detour with articulation. Then back to JCB, because they had crab steering, so I test drove one, but decided I wasn't about to go back to a non-hydrostatic machine. And that's how (sort of, and leaving out a lot of details) I ended up with the EarthForce...

MarkC
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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #53  
Terry - You're welcome! And thank you for not yelling at me, even when I earn it... /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MarkC
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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #54  
Rat,
I'll admit that Terry's comments about hydro's were a little harsh but still his opinion, but anyway. With regard to the older 2wd tractors and you and Mark saying that they cannot compete with todays compact tractors I'd like some clarification on that. It seems you are as quilty as Raptor of going off about and degrading some pretty fine tractors that put food on your table day after day. The old 60's and 70's tractors are the backbone of most farms. That Massey I had you could hook it up to about anything and go work all day long. I never was anywhere where I got it stuck and I have some pretty rough ground. When I poured my floor for my barn the concrete truck got stuck. The other truck that was here couldn't get him out. I hooked up to the Massey and pulled him right out, my JD just sat there and spun all four wheels. This 4020 I traded for is considered the best tractor ever made by most people by JD. I'm not sure what couldn't be done with either one of these tractors that couldn't be done with a compact where SPACE is not an issue. What is a "skip loader"? Anyway if you're talking about general chores around the house and such yes a compact is great, that's why I bought one. But if you're talking about going out and going to do heavy work then forget it. You even said yourself there weren't any farmers in your area doing serious farming with compact tractors.

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #55  
On my 4310 the cruise doesn't work in revese/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Yes my cruise stays on unless I hit both brake pedals. Must have something that might need adjusting on your pedals.

Gordon

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #56  
Very well put Mark! I really like that fourth link you posted /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Gordon

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #57  
Ok remember this -----Chew tabacco--chew tabacco--chew tabacco ----spit,,,if you aint runnin a hydro you aint runin -- aw never mind./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Gordon

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #58  
Terry, the problem is not with passion, since this whole thing started about someone trying to decide on a tractor and its drive, I think that offering this fellow a opportunity to understand and be informed about the subject is great. I just felt your opinion did neither. Nothing wrong with having your opinion and as you stated, it was just your opinion and that is fine. We should also be able to point out where the obvious flaws in your or anyones opinion are with again our opinion. My opinion has been formed by having both tractors and also having hundreds of more hours on "gear" drives as well as torque converter "gear drives" like the CAT 960's then HST's. As far as durability, only time will tell if the HST will be anywhere near as tough as most manufactuers gear drives. Your response to mine was excellent and I do agree with it. You certainly do not have anything to apologize for as far as being "old school", the only pun intended there was that I know so many folks that are and the computer has so slowly become something they will use. The fact that you sought help with your endeavor is adimirabe. The 2 cents remark I made referred only to your comment about the hydrostatic drive and not your comments in general. You too have great and safe tractoring, Rat...
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #59  
Richard from time to time I rent a tractor. Every now and then all they have are the industrial 2WD drives available with loader and box scraper. The loader portion works great on these bigger machines, its the traction or lack of it when the bucket is full. You have a tough time going uphill backwards everytime. Using a box scraper on a 2WD tractor is almost useless for really getting into the material with rippers. I have no dislike of these tractors, its what I learned on and I still have one. I know its my opinion, but feel its got a little merit since I do have experience with both as well as own both. I don't think I was degrading them or the owners of them as I would be doing it to myself as well. The fact is these compacts with 4WD have so much more traction then the old 2WD tractors I used which is really important with a loader. Todays construction tractors are pretty much all 4WD, I think you can certainly understand that. The old tractors you mention as being the backbone of the farms, I always thought of them as the backbone of yesterdays construction industry for quickly moving material around. Here in CA., its always interesting to see what old tractor the farmers have still running around in the yard. It is pretty much older stuff. The backbone I would say in their work are the big 6 and 8 tire drives made by CASE, JD and New Holland as well as a few other brands. One thing that is being seen more and more are the CAT rubber track drives. I'm sure these guys probably get some ridiculing, but they are starting to pop up everywhere, even JD has one now. Rat...
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #60  
Richard - When I got my first and second Kubotas (the smallest L in GST followed by the 34-hp L GST), I had an MF - I can't remember the model at the moment, but it was 2wd, a little under 50 hp. It was a good bushhogging tractor, for the most part. Beyond that, I found it worthless, compared to either Kubota. The fact that I'm basing that statement on a comparison is the critical piece of information, because the MF was a far better tractor than my Dad's Ferguson, in my opinion. At least it was a diesel. But, as far as productivity and ease of use were concerned, no contest. I didn't have the smallest L long at all, but the L3410GST would work the much larger MF into the ground. The L4310HST was a huge improvement in those areas over the L3410GST, so the MF and the 4310 aren't even in the same universe, by comparison. Would I take the MF if it were the only thing available? Sure. Did I want it anymore after using the Kubotas? Nope.

Some reasons to back up all that propaganda. Reason number 1: [/i]FOUR WHEEL DRIVE[/i] (that's meant to be read as though it were said accompanied by jumping up and down, waving your arms about manaically, while shouting it at the top of your lungs /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif). Reason number 2: GST. The reason the L4310HST was so much better than the L3710GST: HST. In my opinion, based on lots of hours on all of 'em, is that it's just that important. (I actually had fewer hours on the HST than on the GST's.) It makes that much difference. Or to revert back to my 4-in-1 bucket approach: Don't like HST? Haven't spent much time using one, have you? My point here is that, if not, you aren't qualified to have an opinion based on anything practical that you can share with others. (Again, I admit this is over-simplifying a tad. I'm not saying that HST is for everyone but the remaining few don't usually come here for advice - they already know. And there are also other considerations, too. For example, some folks can't afford a new enough tractor to get HST.)

Your comment that the tractors Rat degraded were/are "some pretty fine tractors that put food on your table day after day" is well taken. But the context we were discussing was one of comparisons. There have been some very fine horse-drawn implements that put food on the table day after day, too, but you don't see people lining up to do it that way anymore. Those are fine tractors. There were some fine horses. Today's tractors are finer. By far. At least, that's been my experience.

MarkC
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