Hydro vs Gear Trans?

   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #21  
<font color=blue>and that's why the small decrease in hp is somewhat misleading</font color=blue>

There I go, trying to use a little book knowledge and not temper it with practical experience. That's what's nice about this forum. Someday I'll have my own tractor - but for now it's just readin' and wishin'. After a 3 month fight with the county road commission they finally gave me a driveway permit for my property, so now I can get the other permits and start building a home for my future tractor.
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #22  
Doc I know we already had this discussion on the hydro versus the gear. Yes there is some hp loss in the hydro. But really there are only two disadvantages to the hydro when talking large tractors and farming.

That is groundspeed, with a gear tractor anybody trained or untrained can come close to the correct ground speed by the chart. With a hydro to get the precise ground speed a gps is needed. But then again alot of the large gear tractor owners also use gps to get precise over the ground speeds. The reason being any wheel or clutch slippage.

The other downfall of the hst is at the end row when brake turning. Kubota does have a more difficult setup than some of the other brands when it comes to brake steering. But with the cruise on its easy to do.

But if your buying a tractor just for row cropping then a gear tractor would be the best bet. If your going to use it for a bunch of different operations then I would go with the hst.

take it for what it's worth
thats my two cents
Gordon

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #23  
Couldn't have said it better Gordon. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #24  
Richard, I doubt you have much experience with hydrostatics. It is true that hydro's have been a problem, primarily with John Deere. Hopefully the new 4X10 series addresses that. My local John Deere dealer says its been a gigantic headache repairing the HST's on his John Deeres 4000 series tractors he has sold, he even went as far as to show me the JD's dealer only portion of the web site showing me all the HST repairs. I was impressed by JD's tracking database system for all of their tractors, I was amazed by the number of HST problems, especially on the 4600 tractors. As far as light duty comments, I am not sure what kinda farming or serious tractor work farmers do where your at, but out here in California, its not done with compact tractors with the possible exception of the grape growers. Many tractors, JD included may very well use "geared" tractors (hydrostatics are geared too) but some also use torque converter type drives (loss of power does not seem to concern them much). Having used shuttle shift tractors (thats a Power Reverser to JD folks) for years, I found them a wonderful advantage over the old gearshift reverse. Now having an HST, I will easily out perform mobility wise, a comparable shuttle shift tractor regardless the of task. While a constant speed can be obtained with a gear tractor with a hand throttle and constant load, that speed will vary greatly under varying loads. Speaking from experience, the advantages of HST will become so obvious so quickly. Folks who disagree are either not familiar with HST or have a task that simply does not warrant the ability to go forward/backwards/forwards with any routine frequency such as in loader work or the ability to stop quickly, with both the front and rear axle still engaged. A gear tractor, unless it has front brakes loses this ability the moment your out of gear or have the clutch in. A huge disadvantage on hills like where I live. Anyway, just wanted to let a few of those folks considereing a new tractor to hear a little from the "PRO HST" side. Dealers here in my neck of the woods mention that almost all they sell in compacts anymore are HST's and now that I own one, its no surprise. Rat...
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #25  
Rat,
NOW for the last time I am NOT an HST HATER!!! I just don't believe a person HAS to have one. Yes they are nice to have but you certainly don't have any less of a tractor if you don't have one. If you will read my posts you will see that I have numerous experience with hst driven machines. Most of my life has been spent on the seat of tractors or heavy equipment. I think this has already been pointed out many times.

If you will look at the posts I think you will see that I have pointed out already that if you are buying a tractor just for multi-use around your house or small acreage and not raising crops, etc. then an hst will be fine if you want one and there are no real disadvantages. If you are farming though, big disadvantage. As far as getting work done faster I've used both and while they may be a little more convenience wise a person that knows what they're doing it won't matter if you are on an hst or a gear tractor you will get the same amount of work done just as fast. You may get the work done faster on an hst if you are not experienced but a good operator will keep up with and do just as much work with a gear tractor, especially with the power reverser. Once you are familiar with equipment you make the adjustments just as fast as you would on an hst. Most guys that I see posting on here anyway say that time isn't an issue they just want to be able to use their tractor to do the job. Most guys enjoy using their tractors. From that standpoint it's certainly more fun to be shifting gears and moving levers to get work done rather than just pushing on an accelerator pedal. And others want that convenience and that's ok I'm not bad-mouthing hst's. As have already been pointed out there are numerous advantages to a gear tractor over an hst and vice versa. As far as speed varying greatly that will simply not happen unless you have too high a gear or not enough horsepower, again experience knowing how to get the tractor geared and idled at the right speeds.

As far as farming goes many of the guys here have expressed a desire to do farming with their tractors. I take care of almost 400 acres with mine and the Super 90. It pulls all types of machinery where a gear drive is needed so yes there are guys that buy these tractors for serious farming. I didn't do a census of farmers here for tractor types like is done in CA, but I do know alot of guys, that farm thousands of acres, that have them as they are easy to get around the barns and such and for doing smaller jobs.

As far as your comments about losing if you are on a hill that is simply not true. The power reverser will do the same job your hydro will do. All you have to do is pull back on the lever and the tractor will go into reverse gear just like stepping from the forward to reverse pedal. All you're stopping anyway with the hydro is the transmission. I sure don't want to rely on my transmission for stopping purposes as that would be pretty hard on it over time, that's what the brakes are for.

All in all an hst is a great transmission, no doubt, but it certainly isn't the golden calf that is so often exclaimed. For a beginner it's a great way to get started driving a tractor. For an old pro it's a great convenience if you don't want to fiddle with gears and levers and such. If you know what you're doing though all you're gaining with the hst is convenience. For some of us you lose a few things that we like. As far as speed, etc. goes in doing jobs you don't lose anything you just have to work a little more operating the tractor.

To sum up so we don't misunderstand each other I agree that an hst is a great tractor to have. It gives you alot of convenience and less operations to perform to do the same work. For some applications it's the cat's meow. For others it's a hinderance and not applicable. While an hst should certainly be considered it's not an absolute must to have. You can still do the same work, just as fast, with a gear tractor, it just takes a little more effort. Just because I point out the other side it doesn't mean that I am against them. Most people though say that the hst is the only way to go and there are other choices that are just as good, it just depends on what you want to do.



18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #26  
Gordon, you said:

"Kubota does have a more difficult setup than some of the other brands when it comes to brake steering. But with the cruise on its easy to do."

What am I doing wrong? When I engage the cruise on my L3710HST it kicks off when I step on one of the brakes, I don't remember which side. The other side doesn't do that. I don't really need to brake steer but I would like to know how in case I ever do.

Maury Jacobs
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #27  
<font color=blue>...Rat, NOW for the last time I am NOT an HST HATER!!! ...</font color=blue>

/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I can just visualize going down the road somewhere in Iowa and seeing this on a bumper sticker on the rear of a Ford Diesel Pickup... /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

It seems like this subject doesn't get beaten to death often enough...

For the typical weekend "farmer" with a few acres or very small plot, mostly lawn care/mowing type duties... the hydrostatic transmission is number "uno" on a "compact tractor"...

For the 24/7 farmer/occupation... geared/sync'd transmission is number "uno" on a "utility/farm tractor"...

And to further muddy the waters, the last couple years... a combination hydro/gear such as the "Powerreverser" has really taken hold on the utility end that seems to offer the advantages of both and disadvantages of none.../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #28  
The key question is not what options or brand tractor the prospective buyer wants. Rather, the first question to ask is 'How do you want to use the tractor?" which the veteran members of TBN almost always pose first. All too often advocates of a particular brand or option begin debating the merits in a vacuum, i.e., absent knowledge of how a the tractor will be used. This is usually the environment where flame wars can rear up.

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #29  
Thanks for this info. For those of us at high altitude, we already are losing 2% of the available
horsepower/1000 ft. Seeing as how I am at almost 9000 ft msl, I already start off with 18% less
horsepower than the sea level folks. The last thing I need is to lose any more power!!!!
I'll be going with the gears.
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #30  
<font color=blue>...the first question to ask is 'How do you want to use the tractor?" ...</font color=blue>

Absolutely Mike... "What are you going to mainly use the tractor for 80% of the time?"

My comments were mostly based on current sales trends of units... who knows, maybe lots of people having hydros would have been better off using gear and vice versa.../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Bottom line, most "homeowers" will buy/have hydro transmissions and most "farmers" will buy/have gear transmissions for their applications...

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #31  
I'm with CBDoc on this one. My personal preferance is gear. The PowerReverser sounds like a nice way to go, and while some decry power steering as a MUST with a FEL, I never found that to be the case. Like CBDoc stated, experience is the key...not to just overall workspeed, but for the 'howto' also.
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #32  
Well, I'll agree with you, Scruffy and Cowboydoc, if you're talking about big time farming (long runs at constant speeds), and I'll even agree with you if you're talking about front end loader work if you really need the additional exercise./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif But since I have a lot more time on geared tractors than I do on hydros, I think I know how to use one (although I haven't used the power reverser models), and it's just a lot more work - guaranteed! And after carpal tunnel, I hope I never have to do anymore FEL work without a hydro and power steering.

BirdSig.jpg
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #33  
Bird, I must say that I don't miss what I've never had. I don't care about the power steering, even for fel work...there are ways to go about it that make life much easier. As for HST, well, when it comes to repairs, I like (even on autos/pickups) the cost on standard gear repair vs HST/automatics. The overall use (IMHO) is just as good, and for getting down dirty work the less horsepucky you have to deal with the better off you are. If I wanted life easy, I guess I should've been born to a family that had something more than an old Cletrac to learn on! That old thing was a jewel, and the old Ford tractor was just fine. Heck, when I first got to drive that, I thought I was in hog-heaven! Beat the old Cletrac all to dickens! The Oliver 550 that came along in later years was a dream. Even w/o pwr steering, FEL work was no problem at all. If you wanted to set still and crank on the steering wheel, go for it! But if it was even rolling just a tiny bit, steering was easy, and when you cranked in the brake steering, no problems at all. Yeah, shifting got to be tedious, but so what? It was all part of what you were doing, a rythem developes and you don't even think about it. Just do.
I am still adament about it, for personal use, no HST! power steering, fine, IF it comes with it, if not, no loss.
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #34  
John, Bird, and Scuffy absolutely right on all accounts. It depends who you are and what you want to do. In Bird's case he could probably beat us all into the ground with running a tractor but his hands wouldn't be too good after a few hours of constant gear handling. Perfect example of having the talent and experience to handle a gear tractor just as efficiently but due to the carpal tunnel hst is a blessing.

18-35034-TRACTO~1.GIF
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #35  
Hmmm... I said to myself that when this discussion started, I was going to stay out of it. But, there are a few points I'd like to bring out.

They're here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. There's a lot more I'd like to add, but I'm trying not to be too long-winded these days. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

MarkC
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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #36  
<font color=blue>I don't miss what I've never had</font color=blue>

Scruffy, I think that's an important point. I once read a sociology textbook in which the author had a theory of poverty he called "relative deprivation" and I agree with his theory. Before television and modern communications, there were lots of products that we love now and think we absolutely must have, but which we never missed before because we didn't even know they existed; hadn't seen them on TV and the neighbors didn't have them either. When I think of the houseful of modern appliances, and a shop full of tools, etc. that I didn't miss years ago . . .. I even thought cars were great when they didn't have power steering, power brakes, air-conditioning, automatic transmissions, much less power seats, windows, mirrors, and all those things I just wouldn't want to do without now./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I grew up poor, but didn't know it at the time; thought that was the way everyone lived./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

And I thought geared tractors were great for real farm work until I drove a John Deere with Power Shift./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

BirdSig.jpg
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Bird on 11/24/01 06:57 AM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #37  
<font color=blue>...In Bird's case he could probably beat us all into the ground with running a tractor but his hands ...</font color=blue>

And that's with Bird having one hand tied behind his back.../w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

Never, never ever underestimate those retired Police Officers...and lifelong farmers.../w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

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   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #38  
I'm afraid you guys greatly overestimate my abilities and experience./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

BirdSig.jpg
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #39  
Bird, I can agree to a point on the 'comforts', but it has been a conscious decision for years, on my part about certain items in your list. I do have an automatic in my pickup, because if it came to an emergency, my wife COULD drive it. She used to drive my old datsun p/u, but if she wasn't my wife, I would of sued her for whiplash! That and the knots on the back of my head from getting it rapped on the rear glass.
Electric windows? No thanks. Another problem zone that I don't need...been there, done that a few times. Air conditioning, yep! (ain't totally masachistic)
On a tractor, pwr steering...take it or leave it. HST...thanks, but no thanks. Now a couple of the gear trans modifications sound handy...but not anything I couldn't live without. Tools?
All I can say, is while we might not have had the material things, Dad still had a decent shop...what farmer doesn't? It is a part of the life-style. You can't afford to have the repair work jobbed out, so you do it for yourself. I grew up on the 'make-do' or adapt type of repair. (It may not have been meant to do the job you adapted it for, buy by golly, it works well!) Dad was a packrat in some senses, because nothing got thrown out. We had an old milk barn that was converted to the storage barn, you could find darn near anything in there, and with a little imagination, come up with a table saw, or whatever out of the odds and ends.
Fancy ain't necessary, and many times will just lead to more problems, or expense that you don't need.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of my viewpoint, and while I can respect others viewpoints on HST, it will not change my way of thinking. Irreguardless of MarkC's here,here,here etc.
They boil down to personal preferences, and opinion.
 
   / Hydro vs Gear Trans? #40  
Richard, actually I was about to edit my post because when I was done I got the feeling that I wasn't be fair to you. I know that you have never shown a dislike for an HST and if thats how my post came across then I did a poor job of explaining myself. I think it was the HST is a light duty task transmission only that made me think most of the rest of what you said was wrong. I think any amount of loader work works easiest with a HST. I can't think of where I ask for more "heavy duty" application then driving the tractor into a pile of dirt until the wheels spin and grabbing load after load of material. I don't argue with your statement that you use a compact to do farming, I would just think discing 400 acres would be a bit punishing year after year on even a your John Deere compact and a bit slow since its doubtful you have a 16' wide disc setup.

The power reverser must do something different that I am not familiar with as on several of the shuttle shift tractors there is always a slight delay going from forward to reverse or reverse to forward as the hydraulic activated clutch pack is disengaged/engaged. You don't notice it on the flats but get on some steep stuff and becomes apparent very fast that even the delay causes alot of ground to be covered in the half second the whole disengaging/ rengaging process is going on. Anyway, I still have a "gear" tractor and an HST and think their great. Rat...
 

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