Hydrogen infrastructure

[KennyG]

[QUOTE[...not aware of any stand alone hydrogen gas fields in the world...

By "world" I take it you mean on this planet ?...otherwise take a look at the sun (no don't do that...!)...consider the sun...it's mostly made of hydrogen...that is so dense one teaspoon of our suns mass would weight close to two pounds...

FWIW...once a star like our sun finally burns out and implodes into something like a neutron star...that same teaspoon sized bit of mass would weigh over 10 million tons...
[/QUOTE]

Which brings us to nuclear fusion, which is probably the only way hydrogen will make economic sense as a fuel for large scale use. If we can only get there.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

You are correct in your thinking and the example of a car proves it to be correct.
My example was that you needed at least 20 fork trucks to warrant the infrastrure cost of a large, above ground tank and all that goes with it.
As stated earlier, the savings occurs only if you are operating multiple shifts. Refueling 1 fork truck between shifts (in 5 minutes) means you aren't buying the 2nd truck for use while the 1st one recharges (taking several hours). The end result is 1/2 the fork trucks, reduced footprint (where trucks recharge) and clean air.
So that is the sales pitch for better or worse.

When I was in college, one of my summer jobs was wheel-up driver in a freezing plant. I drove an electric forklift, and we only recharged it on Sundays, when the plant was shut down for cleaning. A forklift needs a huge counterweight, so instead of cast iron they used a huge battery. The charger was as big as the forklift, and used 3 phase power.

 

[Root Cause]

When I was in college, one of my summer jobs was wheel-up driver in a freezing plant. I drove an electric forklift, and we only recharged it on Sundays, when the plant was shut down for cleaning. A forklift needs a huge counterweight, so instead of cast iron they used a huge battery. The charger was as big as the forklift, and used 3 phase power.

I can't imagine what that battery cost back in the day.
Don't we wish we had taken some pictures of those memories?

I was 19 and working as an apprentice. I went to a forklift safety class. I don't remember, maybe 4 hours long. Took a test and they gave me a permit.
A few days later, the boss told me to go get a die off the rack and bring it into the toolroom. The building was 80 years old and built to make skillets. Now we were moving a near 10 ton die with a 10 ton fork truck. I asked a diemaker how the heck I was to move this die being longer than the isle was wide. He helped put on for extensions and I had to cock the die on an angle. I climbed up a few rungs of a ladder to get in the seat. I was terrified to even start it up.
Then the guy said, "Hey, the brakes don't work. If someone steps out in front of you, just drop the die on the floor- It'll stop. That was a long time ago but I think it's pretty accurate. I was sure I would kill someone before my first 90 days were up. Somehow, we all survived.

 

[DieselBound]

Something in the recent news may have a major impact on modern physics...

Basically what this is...Is a different (new) state of matter that does not follow the laws of thermodynamics...!

Eternal Change for No Energy: A Time Crystal Finally Made Real | Quanta Magazine

Like a perpetual motion machine, a time crystal forever cycles between states without consuming energy. Physicists claim to have built this new phase of matter inside a quantum computer.

www.quantamagazine.org

Wow! Who would have thought that the crystal-huggers were on to something! But, in seriousness, this is really a perpetual motion machine, something that was though impossible: I wouldn't have won the bet!

 

[DieselBound]

For what it's worth, here's one reference to my note on hydrogen boilers (I had a better article, one that was more about R&D; this one is heavy in marketing lingo):

Hydrogen Boiler | Worcester Bosch

Bosch isn't exactly a small company.

 

[3930dave]

Just started to look at this specific area recently..... what a small team at Stanford did a few years ago....

Can splitting water become an efficient way to store solar energy?

It's good to see a lot of initiatives in play, as posted here recently. Much of the general public doesn't understand that while a lot of primary work doesn't necessarily get applied directly, minor aspects of the same work may enable other important developments.

30% ^ may not sound high (esp. if you haven't looked at other processes), but when the I/P energy is zero cost......

Rgds, D.

 

[DieselBound]

Dave, it's almost like using solar to pump water UP (up hill) to store (potential energy). Let it down to a turbine and you get hydro-produced electricity.

 

[Hay Dude]

In the future, I think we'll be seeing a lot of innovation (and intrusion) in how our electrical infrastructure is controlled and "metered". In some ways, probably similar to paying for additional bandwidth or having your bandwidth restricted if your a hog. I can also see "smart chargers" that might control the charging of multiple vehicles each night and have the ability to look at charging hierarchy (mommy or daddy's car takes precedence etc.) and historical usage to determine what's the actual minimum charge that might be needed.

There's also lots of work being done to try to make supercapacitors that could take a charge in seconds/minutes and then discharge slowly. That would probably become a real game changer.

Cant wait for that.
Maybe the number of breaths we take per day is another new regulation coming?

 

[3930dave]

Cognitive Dissonance..... I understand some of the basics, but also need to do more study in this area (to understand what's going on Out There, not in this thread ).

If you learn to swim well and how to navigate and operate and repair boats, you have some options on the water. If you fall into the water with zero skills and preparation, then your only option is grabbing the life-preserver thrown your way....... or, maybe that's just how I see it being sold today....

CO2. In the news much, today. Last Biology class was long ago, so went to check.... yep, plants still process CO2......

We think we're badass with how much power we play with..... saw a # I wasn't expecting reading the wikipedia entry for photosynthesis....

Today, the average rate of energy capture by photosynthesis globally is approximately 130 terawatts,[8][9][10] which is about eight times the current power consumption of human civilization.

Like I said..... Bio is my weaker science.... that # would not likely surprise a Bio Major....

What are we doing about keeping greenspaces ?

A few Summers back, heavy rainfall flooded many areas near downtown Toronto. A cry went up in the city "This is the fault of Big Oil".

Did Big Oil force anybody to concrete over thousands of square miles of land ? Do you need a Masters in Hydro Mechanics to glom the consequences ?

Cognitive Dissonance...... I need to read more......

I like seeing EVs progressing along..... I just don't want them to be perceived as the only Life Preserver in the Water.....

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Dave, it's almost like using solar to pump water UP (up hill) to store (potential energy). Let it down to a turbine and you get hydro-produced electricity.

I guess you didn't get that memo.... Hydro electric is evil !

JK . It's pretty weird how gravity and water get such a bad rap today. Unless (as I posted in another thread) you are a Nordic country using it to produce The World's Greenest EV battery in the high Arctic (no fragile eco-system there, eh).....

More rounds of Cognitive Dissonance for everybody, I'm buying !

(I do like hydro-electric, always have.....)

Rgds, D.