Hydrogen infrastructure

[Egon]

The consumer requires a decent paying job to purchase the goods that the producer offers. If that does not happen the producer has no place to sell his product.

It starts as a slight decline for a few years then slowly turns into exponential decay of the marketing - production system.

Inexpensive labor and large profits at the start evolving into no sales therefore no production, no profit, no producers and the smart folk that moved things offshore for more profit turn into poor folks like most of us And do not appear so smart anymore.

 

[Jstpssng]

40 years ago when jobs were being sent overseas the "logic" was that the US would become a service-based economy.
My question at the time was "Who's going to be paying them?"

 

[3930dave]

I was gonna give you a good post but it's better than good....it's true.

When i told him i could source the aluminum much cheaper in about 5 different places he just said......

But if i do that amico, my italian brothers will lose their
jobs. Just as simple as that.

You think you ever hear anything like that at the apple share holders meeting?

It is different in a lot of Western Europe.

Germany - even new workers start out with many weeks of paid holidays. Work hard, but get paid and play hard too....

I attended technical training in Stockholm. At the end of the wrap-up session, one of the senior factory guys said "When we ask you for forecasts for the next quarter, we are not trying to be a pain - we want to be able to plan things so everybody working here can get home to their families on time every day."

I have enough years/rodeos under my belt to be able to judge - he/they meant exactly what was said.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

40 years ago when jobs were being sent overseas the "logic" was that the US would become a service-based economy.
My question at the time was "Who's going to be paying them?"

It does seem that where we've ended up is Robbing Peter AND Paul, just so the CEO Bonus Gets Paid....

We've seen some general inflation the last year, and we're not done by a long shot. I believe that stable and cost effective energy sources are an important cornerstone of modern society.

70's was a good example of what an oil-shock can do..... causes are somewhat different today, but major changes in energy policy/pricing alone have huge impacts to the economy, even w/o all the general logistic and material disruptions we have at the moment.

I'm a fan of domestically produced energy sources, and I'd like to see hydrogen play more of a future role....

Rgds, D.

 

[Root Cause]

it seems like batteries keep making incremental steps. Competitors learn from each other and they continue to make real progress.

Hydrogen seems more like a light switch and no one has found it yet if it exists at all. Many are close but so far, no breakthrough that changes the energy landscape.

I started my career in tool & die and thought my job and the middle class was safe. I like history and realized I was repeating the history of a blacksmith.

All this to say, that great changes are taking place and I hope we come out stronger for it. Regardless, I expect to be painful. A once popular saying, "necessity is the mother of invention" may repeat itself regarding energy as well.

I too hope that someone finds the light switch and we have better options in the future.

 

[Frankenkubota]

40 years ago when jobs were being sent overseas the "logic" was that the US would become a service-based economy.
My question at the time was "Who's going to be paying them?"

you know, i've been thinking about that for a long time.

always a story

in jr high school (1964?) mr kamp taught civics and if you got him you had to subscribe to us news and world today, a straight up newsmag from the old days.

i hated it......what a great idea!

I remember reading that the us was transitioning from a manufacturing to service economy. i had no idea what "service" jobs were. Everybody's parents worked in factories.

The news just listed the 5 most unwanted jobs out there.....all service....childcare the worst, any kind of care was bad, nursing home etc etc.

i've said it before, everyone wants someone else to do the dirty work.....that's service jobs.

Not related but.....i also read way back then that americans would take 1/2 their meals in restaurants.

BS

We were not rich, i was 14 years old and never been in a restaurant in my life! The idea that we would eat in restaurants was just plain stupid!

On the other side of that coin, they said we would be outta oil by 2020......hmmmmmmm

 

[3930dave]

As Brits say "Needs Must". Pain will create course changes.... seems to take more ergs to make elective changes though.... few (other than Elons) jump at the chance to be out front of change.....

Electric vehicles were produced long before any of us were born.... batteries have only really changed a bit in the last 20 years or so... It all takes time, and sometimes a nudge from circumstance....

Hydrogen is so pervasive, in some respect the forest is lost in the trees...... If the Hindenburg (never designed for hydrogen to begin with) hadn't gone up, hydrogen may well have been further along by now.

I've seen glimpses of big industrial interest in hydrogen. Pure electric (EVs) can work fine in a dense urban environment, assuming grid capacity matches. That doesn't address some industrial/commercial requirements though..... certain activities (mining, logging, shipping.....) require sustained high energy outputs in remote areas/over long distances - needs that pure electric will find really challenging for some time to come....

Diesel was first adopted (very quickly displacing steam) by heavy industry, before spreading into light duty applications. I won't be surprised to see hydrogen follow the same migration path.

There is no one Lord of The Energy Rings in existence today..... so having an intelligent mix of energy options available is the next best option, IMO.

Rgds, D.

 

[Frankenkubota]

It is different in a lot of Western Europe.

Germany - even new workers start out with many weeks of paid holidays. Work hard, but get paid and play hard too....

I attended technical training in Stockholm. At the end of the wrap-up session, one of the senior factory guys said "When we ask you for forecasts for the next quarter, we are not trying to be a pain - we want to be able to plan things so everybody working here can get home to their families on time every day."

I have enough years/rodeos under my belt to be able to judge - he/they meant exactly what was said.

Rgds, D.

good for you

here forecasts are for the-guy above you...to give to the guy above him...for the guy above him....so he can tell his boss.

i worked in sales dealing with huge companies and lots of $ and programs that lasted years and, based on my experience, the notion that a forecast is used to plan, imho, is fantasy.

i'm glad they do it in scandinavia.

 

[KennyG]

....

Hydrogen is so pervasive, in some respect the forest is lost in the trees...... If the Hindenburg (never designed for hydrogen to begin with) hadn't gone up, hydrogen may well have been further along by now.

I've seen glimpses of big industrial interest in hydrogen. Pure electric (EVs) can work fine in a dense urban environment, assuming grid capacity matches. That doesn't address some industrial/commercial requirements though..... certain activities (mining, logging, shipping.....) require sustained high energy outputs in remote areas/over long distances - needs that pure electric will find really challenging for some time to come....

...

Rgds, D.

The thing a lot of people forget is that most of that Hydrogen is bound to other elements. It requires energy to separate it which is then released when the Hydrogen recombines. Therefore, Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is just a way to store energy. Compared to electricity, it has advantages and disadvantages, but I don't see it as widespread solution until we have lots of excess clean electricity generation capacity. In which case, it's still just a niche advantage.

 

[Doughknob]

Water. Holy Grail of energy. Hydrogen and oxygen! If only we could crack it for free.......