Hydrogen infrastructure

[Torvy]

Yet Toyota not only figured it out, they have thousands of HFC vehicles on the road, but none of these issues have arisen.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

As Brits say "Needs Must". Pain will create course changes.... seems to take more ergs to make elective changes though.... few (other than Elons) jump at the chance to be out front of change.....

Electric vehicles were produced long before any of us were born.... batteries have only really changed a bit in the last 20 years or so... It all takes time, and sometimes a nudge from circumstance....

Hydrogen is so pervasive, in some respect the forest is lost in the trees...... If the Hindenburg (never designed for hydrogen to begin with) hadn't gone up, hydrogen may well have been further along by now.

I've seen glimpses of big industrial interest in hydrogen. Pure electric (EVs) can work fine in a dense urban environment, assuming grid capacity matches. That doesn't address some industrial/commercial requirements though..... certain activities (mining, logging, shipping.....) require sustained high energy outputs in remote areas/over long distances - needs that pure electric will find really challenging for some time to come....

Diesel was first adopted (very quickly displacing steam) by heavy industry, before spreading into light duty applications. I won't be surprised to see hydrogen follow the same migration path.

There is no one Lord of The Energy Rings in existence today..... so having an intelligent mix of energy options available is the next best option, IMO.

Rgds, D.

Industry ditched steam ASAP because it is so horribly inefficient. A local lumber mill uses steam efficiently because it's a co-gen electrical plant. They burn junk wood to run the boilers, run the steam through turbines, then use the waste heat for lumber kilns, chipboard presses, resin stills, etc. The electricity runs the mill, and they sell excess power to utility companies. If you have to waste that heat, steam is a huge hole where you shovel money. Diesel is far more efficient.

 

[KennyG]

Industry ditched steam ASAP because it is so horribly inefficient. A local lumber mill uses steam efficiently because it's a co-gen electrical plant. They burn junk wood to run the boilers, run the steam through turbines, then use the waste heat for lumber kilns, chipboard presses, resin stills, etc. The electricity runs the mill, and they sell excess power to utility companies. If you have to waste that heat, steam is a huge hole where you shovel money. Diesel is far more efficient.

Well, not exactly. The diesels we have in tractors are maybe a little over 30% efficient. A large diesel stationary plant will be over 40%. An oil fired steam turbine is over 40% efficient. A combined cycle plant (gas turbine and steam generator) approaches 60%. Industry ditched steam primarily because electricity is so much more convenient and flexible and that electricity almost always came from steam plants.

 

[rademamj1]

Toyota has now sold 10,380 Mirai HVC worldwide over seven years, and no reports of pressure tank failures. But overall its a small number of vehicles, and average mileage numbers per vehicle is still quite low. No information from anyone regarding maintenance issues, common repair problems, reliability and fuel cell range per hydrogen fillup.

Interestingly, Shell Hydrogen is expanding in Kalifornia from the existing 8 hydrogen supply stations to 45 hydrogen supply stations. And the lessons learned from the many vehicle testing programs are being Integrated into the new supply stations.

There have been reports of on-board storage tank leaks. Some tanks have been replaced due to microfractures found in those tanks, particularly at weld joints. Much information is not publicly shared or made available, until extensive analysis is completed. Which makes perfect sense for an R&D program.

Once again, the potential risks of a 5000psi hydrogen storage tank is still there, regardless of the lack of any safety incidents.

 

[etpm]

Toyota has now sold 10,380 Mirai HVC worldwide over seven years, and no reports of pressure tank failures. But overall its a small number of vehicles, and average mileage numbers per vehicle is still quite low. No information from anyone regarding maintenance issues, common repair problems, reliability and fuel cell range per hydrogen fillup.

Interestingly, Shell Hydrogen is expanding in Kalifornia from the existing 8 hydrogen supply stations to 45 hydrogen supply stations. And the lessons learned from the many vehicle testing programs are being Integrated into the new supply stations.

There have been reports of on-board storage tank leaks. Some tanks have been replaced due to microfractures found in those tanks, particularly at weld joints. Much information is not publicly shared or made available, until extensive analysis is completed. Which makes perfect sense for an R&D program.

Once again, the potential risks of a 5000psi hydrogen storage tank is still there, regardless of the lack of any safety incidents.

It's interesting about high pressure cylinders. Aluminum scuba cylinders are pressurized to 3200 PSI. Certain steel ones to 3800 PSI. Though not likely to explode, and a leak would just be dry air leaking, knocking the valve off of one could be catastrophic. And I know lots of divers who toss their cylinders around pretty casually. Still, incidents with scuba cylinders are rare in this country and mostly involve older lower pressure steel cylinders.
5000 PSI is quite high, and I imagine even a very small hole would release copious amounts of hydrogen just because the pressure is so high. But since hydrogen is so light it would rise quickly into the air and so wouldn't pose a pooling risk like propane or gasoline vapors. I wonder what the risk of fire and explosion is for hydrogen compared to gasoline?
Eric

 

[rademamj1]

It's interesting about high pressure cylinders. I wonder what the risk of fire and explosion is for hydrogen compared to gasoline?
Eric

I am surprised no actual studies exist to that regard. Slow leaks of hydrogen, would not be dangerous. Its the catastrophic leaks, the immediate and sudden release of the vehicles entire hydrogen supply during a car accident, that has everyone concerned. The Fireball. I would think, that Fireball event should occur not more often, than today's gas tanks exploding on a vehicle during a car accident.

Meaning it does occur, but statistically occurs so infrequently for the 275 million registered vehicles on the road in these United States. Thus gas and diesel tanks are tolerated as a safe and acceptable storage for today's vehicles. While hydrogen tanks are considered to have unacceptable risks. Perhaps Elon Musk and his strategy team need to rethink about this more carefully.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

It's interesting about high pressure cylinders. Aluminum scuba cylinders are pressurized to 3200 PSI. Certain steel ones to 3800 PSI. Though not likely to explode, and a leak would just be dry air leaking, knocking the valve off of one could be catastrophic. And I know lots of divers who toss their cylinders around pretty casually. Still, incidents with scuba cylinders are rare in this country and mostly involve older lower pressure steel cylinders.
5000 PSI is quite high, and I imagine even a very small hole would release copious amounts of hydrogen just because the pressure is so high. But since hydrogen is so light it would rise quickly into the air and so wouldn't pose a pooling risk like propane or gasoline vapors. I wonder what the risk of fire and explosion is for hydrogen compared to gasoline?
Eric

Knocking the valve off of an air tank would not be catastrophic, since there is a flow limiter under the valve. All high pressure tanks are fitted with one, which is why you don't hear of oxygen tank rockets going through walls. The danger would be fire and explosion if the tank leaked in a confined space. When I was a little kid, somebody left an acetylene tank leaking in the shop where my dad worked. Acetylene is explosive in combinations of 5 parts per 100 with air to 95 parts per 100. The tank leaked until something made a spark. They picked up pieces of that shop a quarter mile away. I really wouldn't want to park a leaky hydrogen regulator in my garage...

 

[Torvy]

I don't normally look to government to back me up, but here's your DOE info...

5 Common Fuel Cell Myths

Fuel cell electric cars are some of the most advanced vehicles on the road today – and they’re here in the United States. Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda all have models commercially available. There is a lot of interest in these cars – and some misco...

www.energy.gov

 

[rademamj1]

I don't normally look to government to back me up, but here's your DOE info...

5 Common Fuel Cell Myths

Fuel cell electric cars are some of the most advanced vehicles on the road today – and they’re here in the United States. Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda all have models commercially available. There is a lot of interest in these cars – and some misco...

www.energy.gov

I spend about 6 hours over last two days evaluating the hydrogen fuel risks. Surprised not a single academic study was dedicated to hydrogen fuel risk analysis. Anyway. I have completely reversed my thinking, and moved hydrogen from high risk to low risk as a fuel for running vehicles. Certainly has no more risk than running gas or diesel in a vehicle.

But you got to be careful with US government websites. They all have a specific agenda.

 

[3930dave]

I don't normally look to government to back me up, but here's your DOE info...

5 Common Fuel Cell Myths

Fuel cell electric cars are some of the most advanced vehicles on the road today – and they’re here in the United States. Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda all have models commercially available. There is a lot of interest in these cars – and some misco...

www.energy.gov

Energy crises can make for strange bed-fellows !

Rgds, D.