I didn't see the big savings????

AndyM · Jul 1, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

I'm one of the people who compared Chinese tractors and New Holland tractors. Actually, I found TBN by doing a Google search trying to find information on Farm Pro tractors that I saw for sale for $2999.

After weighing my options and my needs, I went with the New Holland. Had I had slightly difference needs, and had there been a better dealer network at the time, I might have ended up with one of the Chinese models. I couldn't see myself make that large of a purchase from a traveling tool sale, but since I made my decision, the local Mahindra dealer is now selling Farm Pro tractors.

Bob_Skurka · Jul 1, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

( The 25 HP to 30 HP is a fairly even HP comparison. Chinese tractor HP is based on a 12 hour test not a 1 hour test. The 25 HP Jinma will actually be 28 HP in a 1 hour test which is what they use here. I can't find the article but I remember reading where the Chinese diesel engines will last 10000 hours. Have to remember they're rough looking but they've been building diesel engines for 60 years.

Bob you do it tactfully but all your posts on this forum only amount to bashing Chinese tractors. You can call it what you will but it's easy to read between the lines. )

Mark, actually I'm pretty darn blunt, if I wanted to outright bash I certainly would do that. I really am trying to be objective about the whole thing. I have openly stated on TBN who I am, what I do, what I own, why I own it, and why I don't own someting else. I think the problem is that many people who own a brand think that that is the ONLY brand or the ONLY type. I actually recommended a Farm Pro to a guy I work with, and would do it on this forum. I did think it was very interesting that Goatman found the NH TC30 to be more than price competitive with chinese machines and I felt it warrented an objective breakdown of his decision making process and the actual finances involved.

Never once did I speak to the workmanship of the Chinese versus ??? Never once did I speak to the quality of the forgings, the metalurgy, the features or lack there of. So if you call an objective study of one guys buying decision, and the finances related to it, including the fact that the dealers would not give him a trade it and would not finance "bashing" then so be it. I considered it educational. And to be honest, I was surprised by how the finances actually tipped in favor of the TC30. Because I was one of those people who would have believed the statement that the chinese tractors are 25%-to-30% cheaper. The reality is SOME of them might be, but those are the smallest units. SOME of them are, ALL THINGS CONSIDERED, a wash. I did not bother to bring up the thread about the guy who priced a JD790 against some of the chinese machines and found the JD to be cheaper (until now). I certainly don't call it bashing.

What I don't understand is why we can't all look objectively at all the brands? I have been accused of bashing Kubota because I don't like the 3pt hitch on the BX series . . . and because I find the loader arms of the Kubotas, combined with the long flat hoods block the view of any serious FEL work on their larger machines, but there is a Kubota B2910 parked in my driveway so I know of what I speak! Telling the truth is not bashing. Some people apparently don't like hearing ALL of it.

Soundguy · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

( The 25 HP to 30 HP is a fairly even HP comparison
I'm not going to pay for what a tractor 'may' be rated at.. Those units are produced for our market.. they should be rating them similar to our domestic units.. and in fact.. I would bet they are.
)

I still can't see a 25 hp jinma being put up against a 30hp domestic unit and calling it a fair fight... Look at it like this... My NH 1920 is sopposedly matched to a tc30 (*according to the dealer ) due to hp.. in all reality.. my NH 1920 could benchpress a tc30... probably closer to a tc40.. though not as beefy.
There aint no way you are going to compair a 25hp jinma to my 1920... And yes.. I've test driven a 25hp jinma.. and a 20 hp unit as well... .. neat tractor .. yes.. but it just simply isn't comparable to a domestic 30hp tractor.. unless you are measuring freefall in a 0-G room.

We are all looking at manufacturer rated hp.. and the ability of the machine to produce it when we buy.

( the Chinese diesel engines will last 10000 hours
)

While I have no data to refute your claim.. I offer this. Our domestic diesels.. especially the large early model agg tractors ( 60's era ).. are getting those kind of hours as well.

And frankly.. looking at the fit and finish.. if the inside of the engine is as rough as the outside.. I personally doubt 10,000 hours of similar load use.. Heck.. we hear about metal shavings at the drain plug after the first service.. that has GOT to be a workmanship/QC 'flag'... issue.

Again.. not downing them as a unit... I am still fond of them.. and this KAMA sounds even more intreiguing..

Soundguy

bluechip · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Well, my point is that the JM254 has a 1.5 litre engine making 25 HP at 2350 rpm (and that is a 12 hour rating, not peak). The TC30 has a 1.5 litre engine making 30 HP at 2600 rpm. THere has been a trend in recent years to boost HP and it seem to me it is done by obtaining higher engine speeds. Since HP is calculated using a multiple of the torque produced and the speed it is turning, than I suspect, because of the difference in the rpm rating, that the torque of these two similar sized engines will be surprisingly similar.

Anyone have a dyno handy? I think there would be some very surprising results found in a side by side test.
Torque is the force that does the work.

The physical size of the JM254 is also much closer to the TC-30 than a Jinma 304 so I guess I'm holding firm that if you are going to compare, the JM254 is the most comparable.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are reasons to spend more money on one tractor over another, but I will never be convinced that a $13,400 TC-30 and a $9300 Farm Pro can be manipulated enough to appear to have a similar net cost.

Sure you can assign dollar values to the differences to help in a buying decision. Some of the differences may actually add value to the Chinese tractor, for instance the Koyker loader one would get on it would lift almost twice as much as at least two of the loaders I have seen on the TC-30. What if a customer wants ag tires, would therebe a discount on the TC-30?

Bob, I'll add that I think you have handled this debate honorably and I never felt you were out to bash the Chinese product. Your comments have been well thought out and I am sure that you know that the fact that I don't quite agree with you, certainly doesn't make you wrong!

I do wonder a little if Goatman had started this thread on the New Holland board, if it would have become such an interesting discussion. I do know you wouldn't find my lengthly posts there....

I wish all a great 4th of July weekend to all!

bluechip · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Chris,
I'll just bet your 1920 is rated at a lower RPM than the TC-30 isnt it?

that is what I have been trying to explain. HP is somewhat ambiguous, torque is what does the work.

Your 30HP tractor probably compares closer to the 30HP JInma, heck it is 30HP at only 2000 rpm, now there is some torque involved.

Soundguy · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

( I'm one of the people who compared Chinese tractors and New Holland tractors )

Me too. When I started looking for a second tractor ( I had a ym1700 first ). The two I looked at were a NH tc-18.. 2wd.. and a nortrac.. the 5999 unit. That 5999 unit became 6999 when shipping was added.... the tc18 I was looking at was 7299? or was it 7999? can't remember.. anyway.. real real close...

I was up to the point that I had called and had more or less tentatively ordere fthe nortrac.. got the shipping quote.. I had done eveerything but hand over the credit card info.

I went back to the NH dealer one last time to check out the tc18 when I saw they had just put a slightly used 1920 out for sale... at 9500$ it was only a few minutes from when i parked the truck till I told the salesman that I was purchasing it... too close in price to do otherwise... I essentially paid 9500 for my slightly used tractor.. and would have paid nearly that much for less tractor.. heck.. looking at the 30hp jinma prices.. it was almost even up on the money...

I also looked at massey ferguson as they were the next closest price competitors.. as well as farmtrack...

Soundguy

Soundguy · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

( Your 30HP tractor probably compares closer to the 30HP JInma, heck it is 30HP at only 2000 rpm, now there is some torque involved )

My 1920 is rated at 2237 as far as I can tell from leafing thru the sparse owners manual. That's also a 4 cyl engine at 121 ci.. compaired to the 90something 3 cyl ci engine of the tc30.

So yes.. I guess mine is rated at tad lower rpm than the tc30.

Weight wise.. I'm looking at 3075 or so, per the manual.
( dry? )... I'm guessing the 30hp jinma ways a pile more than that..

Soundguy

goatman · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

I had a Iseki TL2300 that I had about 6k in and did a fine job for me until I tried to get the PTO to work this spring and the PTO wouldn't work.. couldn't find anyone in local are that knew how to work on the Iseki.. Tried to sell it as is and after 4-6 weeks no takers at $4500.. Tried to trade with the closest farmpro dealer 30hp offered at 11500 but he has a small lot and dosen't take trades... Tried numerous farm pro dealers off of e bay and either didn't respond to my emails or offered $3000-$3500 againest their 30 hps ranging $12000-$13000 no special finacing...... Now follow me on the the math Best deal farmpro 30 hp 12500 Minus $3500 trade== $9000.00 at x%. New Holland $13400 minus $4500 trade ==$8900 at 0% 48 months.. Now can you see the reason I went with NH over Farmpro... I did not intend for this to turn into a Chinese bashing post.. Just to say I didn't see ME saving any money buying Chinese at this time with the special interest rates and the trade I was offered by the Farmpro dealers that contacted me.... I will say that I went to JD dealer and was offered in the $3800 range as well and the closest NH dealer only offered $2500.. My point is I did do a lot of emailing,faxing pictures and found the best deal for me... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bob_Skurka · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

Bluechip . . . to answer your question about if someone should assign a credit of $1000 if they actually want AG/R1 tires, the answer is yes. I believe in apple-to-apple comparisons - which frustrates the car and truck dealers I have to deal with! I brought up the R4 tire issues becuase most people who order small CUTs for work around their home are ordering R4 tires, turf tires are also popular on CUTs. Ag tires come a distant 3rd choice, and mostly are sold on import machines that don't offer the R4 option. So I think it is fair to bring up the issue becuase MOST people who use the 20 to 30hp tractors around their homes do not use AG/R1 tires. However, if someone did actually want them, then a credit should be factored.

As for as the choice of the Koyker loader, I believe THAT is the brand that Goatman ordered on his TC30 becuase it was cheaper, he also (again in another thread) indicated it was capable of LESS load than the NH loader but did not need the extra capacity the NH loader provides. I don't know if he is right or wrong, I didn't look at the loader ratings as to which has a greater capacity.

However, with things like FEL capacity and 3PT capacity, I believe that much of it is often not easily compared because different manufacturers have a tendency to measure at different points, such as lift at the rear ball eyes, or 12" behind, or 24" behind . . . and no useful comparision can actually be made unless they are the same, further, many 3PTs have so much capacity they can lift the entire tractor and leave the implement on the ground. As for FEL capacity, again some measure at the pivot point, some at the bucket edge, some in multiple places, so those comparisons are difficult to objectively quantify (regardless of brand or nation of origin).

Regarding manipulating numbers, and assigning values, well some of that is esoteric. However, Goatman got a significantly higher trade in allowance from the dealer he bought from than from other dealers, and some of the Chinese dealers would not even trade, so that is a real number that must be considered. The value of the warrenty, the service department and the parts department are much harder to quantify.

I think the chinese machines fill a void at the bottom end of the market, especially with the smallest machines because the major brands really have limited choices, none even offers a 2-wd that I know of.

OrangeGuy · Jul 2, 2004

Re: I didn\'t see the big savings????

This is an interesting discussion on Chinese tractors. The discussion boils down to...is a Chinese manufactured tractor an acceptable value? Unfortunately their numbers and time in the US market is very limited giving us little history to judge these tractors. However, I do have some insights into Chinese manufacturing and agriculture having visited China more than 20 times over the last 15 years. First I must say that China is a third world country with an economy less than the size of Canada ( no offense to Canada but this statement helps put China into proper perspective). Regulations regarding quality, environment, health and safety, and labor are for the most part non-existent. Chinese factories run by Chinese managers employing Chinese workers to manufacture products for the Chinese market are light years behind factories in the US, Europe and Japan. ISO 9000 and 14000 are years away in these factories.

When visiting retail distributors in China and trying to sell them products of higher quality, I was met with the same objection over and over..."But I do not want higher quality products. I want to repair and replace the parts many times so I can make a bigger profit. My customers do not understand quality".

The above being said...there are high quality factories in China. They are owned ( as much as Chinese law will permit)and operated by Japanese and American companies. These companies are taking advantage of China's incredibly low labor rates to drive down the cost of their products. Visit Shenzen, Zhuhai, Guanzhou and Shanghai and you will find modern factories producing copiers, printers, electronic products and all other sorts of goods for the mostly American market.

However, Chinese manufactured tractors are made in traditional Chinese factories for the Chinese market. Enterprising trading companies are buying these tractors and exporting them to the US market. Like in the Chinese market, they are hoping to find tractor buyers who see an opportunity to buy cheap. This in and in itself is not bad, but it does reinforce the statement "buyer beware". It's interesting in China that the most sought after tractors are Japanese new tractors followed closely by Japanese used tractors.

I am not trying to bash the Chinese manufactured tractors, but only trying to make sure that you enter into purchasing one with both eyes wide open. With the Chinese currency (yuan/remembi) tied to the value of the US dollar, Chinese goods are catching up to the cost of Japanese manufactured goods. They may catch up in price but it will be years before they catch up in quality, workmanship, safety, warranty, operation comfort and convenience, dealer support, resale value and overall pride-in-ownership.

So in answer to the question I posed at the beginning..."Is a Chinese tractor an acceptable value"? Time will tell!!!