I Hate Computers

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 14, 2001

Harv,

I have to agree. The biggest and newest are usually over priced. My practice has been to buy 1 or 2 steps below the "top of the line", run it for a year or two and then upgrade with new CPU/Memory and run that a year or two before starting the cycle all over.

I think it's less important to have the newest and fastest than to have something that will accept the newest and fastest chips. For instance, when I bought this machine, my business programming was rated as requiring a 266. So I bought a PII 350 when the 400's were well out. I just upgraded with a PIII500 (and could have gone to a 600 if I could have found one) and a bunch of ram. That's bought me another couple of years as my business programming is now rated as requiring 400 mz. Well, maybe not, since the wife has designs on my computer.

As long as were discussing this, how hard is it to build one of these guys? I've installed ram, cpus, video cards, hard drives, floppy drives, CD drives and CD R/W, modems and sound cards. Think I'm up to the task? Or should I just be looking at on the shelf units?

SHF

Bird · Aug 14, 2001

Harv, I certainly do not disagree with you, but it seems there might be a slight analogy there to tractors. I know folks who have very old tractors. Now if that tractor will do what you want it to do, and you pretty thoroughly understand the operation, repairs, maintenance, etc. then the old tractor is all you need.

On the other hand, if your knowledge is limited to barely knowing how to drive one, scared to open the hood, don't know how to customize anything, but want plenty of power, automatic transmission, warranty, and convenience. Well, I think you see where I am./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I disassembled a keyboard and reassembled it once (after I knocked over a glass of wine into it)./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif I opened the case on the last computer I had and installed a Soundblaster, and I opened this one once and installed a Zip drive. And other than wiping the dust off and connecting various cables on the back, that's about the extent of my computer mechanic experience./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

And besides that, like a lot of other dummies, I don't always just buy what I need; I buy what I want, sometimes whether I can afford it or not./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Bird

GlueGuy · Aug 14, 2001

how hard is it to build one of these guys?

If you've done that other stuff, it's not hard at all. Biggest problem will be finding the components at a price that will make it worth your while. If you have access to Fry's, they sell "bare bones" kits that include everything but disk and memory. I've seen pretty decent versions of these kits for about $200 (+/- depending on CPU speed). With 256MB of memory running < $50, and decent hard drives going for about $100, that means you could cobble together a decent machine for about $350.

That said, I've seen a lot of machines in that price range already built that you can get from the major vendors (which includes a warranty).

I guess I'm like Harv in this respect. I tend to buy "just behind" the knee of the curve. You pay a lot extra for that "little bit more" performance.

The GlueGuy

Harv · Aug 14, 2001

how hard is it to build one of these guys?

If you're referring to my mention of the ones I've built, I was actually referring to my first couple of computers where I worked with some hard-heads (what programmers call hardware engineers) to design the schematics. Bought the chips and other components, stuffed them into perf boards that had built-in edge connectors and wire-wrapped the whole dang thing. We even built our own power supplies -- wound the transformers by hand. I still have one of those computers, and amazingly, it still runs. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

My last endeavor to "build" a computer was to create a MultiBus Unix system, using mostly cards I picked up at auctions 'n' such. That was also the first/last time I wrote a unix kernel from scratch. A learning experience fer sure, but never again. /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

These days I'm more concerned about using the computer rather than building one, so I just buy off the shelf.

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 14, 2001

Harv,

I'm just looking at the price break. I'm really not sure there is much of one at this point. The on the shelf stuff is looking pretty good. Building does have an advantage, however, in that I have a brand new video card, ram and a new modem laying around, plus I KNOW that the darn thing is upgradable (generic and not specific to one manufacturer).

SHF

mikim · Aug 14, 2001

FYI - I just looked at a Consumer Reports mag that rated Dell right at the top for reliablity etc. --and we're real happy with them here at the office. I'm about ready to buy one of 'em myself. Currently running a P233 at home with 64 MB mem that I assembled a coupla (4 - 5?)years ago. Wife keeps saying something about the town's mechanic always drives the worst car in town?? hey - it gets me where I want to go. ...
mike

glennmac · Aug 14, 2001

My hate is more focused: I hate Windows computers.

I worked for IBM for 17 years. Never learned how to use a PC. Of course, for many of those years I had a DOS machine, which was trying to learn Sanskrit.

When I left IBM and opened an office in my house, I needed a computer. When my 10 year old son showed me how to operate a Mac in 10 minutes at Staples, I bought Macs. Installed them, learned them, updated them all myself. Simple. Never had any problems except an occasional freeze-up.

Went to work at large law firms, which all have Windows networks. Windows is frustrating, non-intuitive (why is there a Start button that doesnt start the computer but stops it), is a pain to attach anything, always breaking and spewing out error messages.

I'm thinking about giving up my work computer--which is still in the hospital because of my C drive problem, while I use a piece of trash 28.8 Winbook--and buying my own Mac Ibook. The only problem is my so-called systems people dont know how to include a Mac into our network. I think it can be done, but I'm years out of date on Mac technology.

Harv · Aug 14, 2001

Bird -

I was neither approving nor disapproving of your computer purchase. Just expounding my personal approach to these things. I think you will be very happy with your new computer, probably for years to come. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I hadn't thought of the tractor analogy, since I wasn't in a position to pick and choose from the latest models at the time. As it turned out, however, I did wind up following my own philosophy -- the one I got was not in its first year of production (Kubota had a chance to fix any manufacturing glitches), plus I let someone else deal with any "new tractor" problems before I bought it.

I don't always just buy what I need; I buy what I want

That was me before I got married (uh-oh! the truth comes out!). /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

Harv · Aug 14, 2001

Glenn -

I totally agree with you about Macintosh computers (Apple corporate problems notwithstanding).

I have used many computers and many operating systems over the last few decades, and IMHO the Macintosh is the cat's whiskers.

However, since most of the world belongs to Bill Gates, I have learned to stay off of this particular soap box. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

looch · Aug 14, 2001

I can second that. I'm a system administrator and I really don't like windows. Install this - reboot; configure that - reboot; it's been a month since you rebooted? reboot. I have an HP-UX machine that I administer that's been running since Christmas. It would have been longer but we upgraded the building's electrical entrance to 1000A so we shut down our server room.
I also have a Linux system at home that I built out of my old P166MMX. It's not bad, but I've found that it is not as stable when using it as a desktop computer - better suited as a server.
Sun has a pretty cool system now - the Sun Blade 100. I don't have any first hand experience with them - just what I've read in articles. It's a UNIX workstation - for under 1000 bucks! For an extra grand or so, you can add a PCI card that kind of acts like a second motherboard so you can run windows in its native environment on your UNIX workstation.
Of course, compared to the Intel platform, software choice is limited.
The new Mac OSx has caught my attention. Anyone using this? Looks like the best of both worlds (UNIX stability with Mac power and interface)

Bird · Aug 14, 2001

Harv & glennmac, back when I was gainfully employed, and had a couple of real computer experts working for me, they, too, thought the MacIntosh was the best. Unfortunately, I never touched the ones we had in the office. And of course I was a bit concerned about capability with other computers (comes from knowing so little about computers, I guess).

And Mikim, I didn't check with Consumer Reports (got disgusted with them and cancelled my subscription years ago), but I did find that PC magazine and ZDNet seemed to favor the Dell. And then I have a nephew up in Washington state who's employed in the computer field, was building his own (and my brother's) even when he was in college quite a few years ago, and several months ago my brother asked him about building him another one and the boy told him he'd be better off to just buy a Dell - and he did.

Bird

MarkV · Aug 14, 2001

Bird,

I Hate Computers

I hear you loud and clear when it comes to computers. After reading all the posts I think I understand about 1/3 of what our computer friends are saying./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif We bought a Dell 4 years ago, after several large (for us) expenditures for other computers. The Dell was great until two weeks ago. When it would not let me get to TBN I told the wife "We have a problem." She calls a friend who is in the bussiness of setting up systems for small companies and he says Win95 is the problem. OK, sounds good to me. He wants to change to Win2000 Pro. OK, sounds good to me. He spends a bunch of time saving our data files to his network, burning a CD of the files, installing the new OS, adding memory and a bunch of stuff I don't understand. Turns out that one of my wifes main programs that lets her into her companies network (Delta Airlines) will not work on Win2000. OK, doesn't sound good to me. We dump all the work that has been done and load Win98 and I am now back to having about 1/2 of the things I use to, have about 1/2 the error messages I had and have spent about 1/2 as much as I would have to buy a new computer. Now this is a sharp guy that does this for a living, has a masters from MIT and is a good friend. What does a guy like me do? On top of that, he is about to start a redo on part of his house so I will end up paying him back by doing things I would normally charge a fair amount for. OK, this is starting to stink. I do think about taking the tractor and putting the computer in a big hole at times./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

After all my venting, I will say we were happy with the way Dell worked with us and the support they offered when we bought the machine.

MarkV

Anonymous Poster · Aug 14, 2001

Mark,

The Dell hardware didn't fail you... the software did.../w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

The majority of all computer problems are software related...not hardware...

Windows NT/2000/2kPro are extremely stable operating systems, the 2kPro is about 20-30% faster throughput speed, geared 100 % toward business. A number of older/poorly written windows 95/98 programs will not run at all/erratically under the business environment op system.

Bird · Aug 15, 2001

Mark, sometimes I wish they'd quit changing and "improving" some things; especially the software. I went from Windows 3.1 on my last computer to Windows 98 on this one (skipped Windows 95), but then Microsoft had more updates and "critical updates" than I could count that I downloaded. Then I bought the upgrade to Windows 98 Second Edition and I think I've downloaded more "critical updates" to it than I did the original version. So now I'll have to see whether I can learn Windows ME (and already the new computer is supposed to come with a coupon to upgrade to Windows XP/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif) if you want it.

I really liked the first versions of Microsoft Works and Quicken when I first used them years ago, and I've certainly lost count of the number of new versions I've gone to over the years. You reckon it'll ever end?

Bird

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 15, 2001

Glueguy,

I've got a discount computer store where I've been buying parts. So, I have access to brown box stuff. I have to admit, there's a certain fun factor to putting something like this together. (Consider if you could get a tractor in a box.) /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Wouldn't you want to at least try to put it together? My main concern is getting everything to work together, which means watching the IO and interrupt requests carefully. I know windows is supposed to handle all that for me, but it doesn't do a very good job.

For more info on the Rambus vs the World ram debate, I've found Geek.com helpful: http://www.geek.com. They usually have the latest and greatest. If I'm reading their reviews correctly, it looks like Intel may be dropping Rambus in favor of DDR on their P4 2 ghz chips.

SHF

GlueGuy · Aug 15, 2001

which means watching the IO and interrupt requests

If you "just say no" to old-style I/O cards (IDE), you never have to worry about that. It truly is plug-and-play if you stick with PCI, USB, 1394 (firewire), etc.

Also, the days of Windows 9x are coming to an end (finally). Windows ME is the last of that breed. I use Win2K at work, and would at home too, except that it won't support the wizzy graphics card I use there. I expect that to be a thing of the past when XP finally hits the streets. We'll see. The only thing I don't like about XP is the new OS-rental scheme that M$ has cooked up.

Five years ago, I thought that Rambus would take over the world. It took them too long to get it working. Intel and Dell bought the hype hook line and sinker, but everybody else said "whoa, that's expensive". I think it won't last long. Things like DDR will kill it off for sure.

Also read that the new 2GHz chips are mostly a marketing ploy. Intel learned last year that consumers mostly pay attention to the clock speed, so Intel is obliging. We are going to have to get smarter about how we compare these things... /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

The GlueGuy

Bird · Aug 15, 2001

The only thing I don't like about XP is the new OS-rental scheme that M$ has cooked up.

GlueGuy, needless to say, I have no idea what you're talking about; never heard of this OS-rental scheme. And naturally, since I'm buying a computer with Windows ME, I figured it'd be obsolete very soon./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif And of course, I know nothing about XP except that the new computer is supposed to come with kind of a coupon for upgrading. The more I learn, the more confused I become./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

And then I guess the next step is satellite Internet service, since I don't expect any decent phone line upgrade in this area in my lifetime. I don't know much yet about the satellite service, but have been told Starband currently has the two-way wireless service available (about $960 to set up and then $70 a month) and that DirecPC now has the two-way wireless (about $600 to set up and $70 a month). Wonder how long it'll take for the prices to come down enough for us poor folks?

Bird

TWINKLE_TOES · Aug 15, 2001

Bird,

Wonder how long it'll take for the prices to come down enough for us poor folks?

It's like having an older brother Bird, we will get the hand me downs when no one wants them anymore because something new and zippy is available, and the more you want it the longer it will take./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Al

Wingnut · Aug 15, 2001

Unlike all the Mac-lovers and Intel-haters out there ... I like most of them (computers). I've had more problems trying to repair Macs than anything else ... and have never seen why they draw such adoration .... but then I still have my Amiga 1000, 200 and 3000's alive and multi-tasking the way a true computer should.
I'm not a fan of Gates or any of his bug-ware ... but I gotta use it at work so I live with it.
I used to always have the biggest baddest machine on the block ... because I built them myself and enjoyed it ... but it stopped being fun when they started putting out a new CPU every 12-1/2 seconds ... so now I'm several gereations back. My current menagerie in the computer room consists of a P-133, P-166, P400 and P-450 ... although I did buy the wife a PIII-700 Gateway a while agho (it's still in the box after 6 months)

too bad that common sense ain't

GlueGuy · Aug 15, 2001

never heard of this OS-rental scheme

Bird,

The "new" plan according to Bill Gates is to "rent" software instead of selling an indeterminate time-frame license. If anyone has gotten the latest version of MS Office XP, they know what I'm talking about.

Here's the way it works: You buy XP (office or the OS), and the $$$ you pay lasts for 3 year, or until you want to "move" the software to another machine (or even, according to some, if you change "too much" of the hardware on your machine /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif). When any of these things happen, you pony up another $$$ for another 3 years, or hardware change.

Seems that M$ wasn't getting enough money from us cheapskates that want to keep the same S/W for a while. They thought they would force it into a a time-scale they could live (and profit) with.

The GlueGuy