I HATE ROAD SALT

[JDgreen227]

I got a chuckle about using sand as it's better than salt.

Sand has salt in it, otherwise the sand would freeze solid and would not be usable. We typically mix salt with sand at any where from 4-1 to 8-1. Thus, for every 4 yards of sand put down, we use 1 yard of salt.

Salt, used straight in this area is layed down at 300-500 lbs. per lane mile.

Sand is spread by the yard, I typically spread sand at about 1.5 yards per mile depending upon road condition. Some nights, it was 2 yards per mile. So, at 1.5 yards per mile, I'm using more salt using salt sand than if I had just laid down straight salt.

When we spread salt, we spread it in a narrow strip in the center of the road. When we use sand, we have to spin it out for coverage, thus using more.

Furthermore, traffic will blow sand off the road/ice within hours, then we return to reapply. Salt once laid down turns to a brine which creeps under the ice breaking it up.

As for temps, a lot of conditions apply, wind, sun, angle of sun (Dec. or March?), air temps but especially road temps all fall into play. We always tried to have the salt down by 5 am for morning traffic to work it in. Lay salt on a Sunday morning at 18 degrees, it doesn't work well. Lay it down with the same temps on a monday with traffic going to work, big difference, works much better.

When I started with public works and snow removal I was a huge sand fan, after seeing how things work from behind the scenes, I've changed my thinking. Salt, when used correctly, is the way to go.

Need more? Sand ends up in the ditches, brooks and lakes causing silt, choking off plantlife and adding phosphorous. It also causes us to re-ditch roads at a much faster pace than normal, often twice as often as roads with no sand.

Salt on the other hand disipates. I will try to find the study from University of New York(?) that studied salt on roads and it's effect on the environment. They found that by late April the salinity of the run-off had returned to normal levels on salt only roads, while sand treated areas carried silt yearround into the bodies of water.

Also, as a 7 generation maple syrup producer, we have lost hundreds of trees to roadside salt. After looking at all the info available, I'll take the properly applied salt over the salt/sand mix whenever possible.

Just my 2 cents, hope it helps.

VERY well stated by someone who clearly knows what they are talking about...my major gripe about salt is what I mentioned at the origin of this thread...salt ruins cars no matter how well automakers build and rustproof them, one of the reasons we drive our Saturn in winter is supposedly the plastic body panels will not corrode and the unibody is said to be one of the most resistant to corrosion of any cars made. I will find out...still have my '93 Olds Cutlass Supreme ragtop, looks factory new BECAUSE it has NEVER seen a salted road.

 

[Jstpssng]

I don't like the salt because it does a lot of damage to vehicle metal. I'd rather see them use sand. Here in NY I see they have started using a liquid brine spraying truck on state roads. I don't know if that will be any better. Salt is salt whether liquid or solid.
I have heard that the state of PA uses only sand and no salt. Salt does have its merits of melting snow and ice.
You can easily see the difference in a vehicle driven for 20 winters in NY compared to one driven 20 winters say in FL.
We have a huge parking lot at work. It is commercially plowed each snowfall, then the maintenance guys go out and salt the lot to prevent freezing (which hopefully prevents slips and falls and lawsuits). They won't use sand because it clogs the storm drains in the lot.

They've been doing that for several years here. Plan on replacing brakelines quite frequently (or with coated lines)if you have an older vehicle. It is rather nice though to have bare roads after a couple days w/o precip.

I found the OP's post very similar to my frequent rant's against ABS; this is the only feature I anm aware that increases your stopping distance while claiming to be a safety feature. When I put on the brakes I want to STOP; not have a computer kick in just as the brakes are about to do their job.

 

[Egon]

Egon, is that actually true or not....?

We get salt spread on the roads here too.

 

[dex3361]

Salt destroys roads and bridges. I live on a rural road that is what we call tar and chip. Tar and chip holds up pretty well until someone decides we need some salt dropped on it. I usually clear the one mile state road instead of waiting for the state road crew to do it. It was a week after our last snowfall and the road was clear and here comes the state road crew with the plow down scraping a clear road and dropping salt on a tar and chip road. This spells disaster for the road. It was not even 2 days until the destruction began. Now after a week the road is crumbling. Anywhere the salt made its way through the base it is turning to mush. I get disgusted at this waste of money. When spring comes they will gravel the bad places and then spend thousands of taxpayer dollars on patching the road just to get it back where it was. The money could be better spent. I called the State Road Dept and asked them to please not salt our road. The lady I talked to said it was a new driver and they should have known better.

 

[Furu]

There are elements of accuracy in all the above statements. I have been interested in how nice the roads are to drive up here in Alaska since I have been working up here for the past years. And if you want to talk lots of snow and low temperatures, do a comparison and see what snow and cold temps really are. They use just a fraction of the salt that is used outside the state and have a fraction of the problems seen outside as well. See the link for more info about how much salt should be applied to sand/salt and why they have to use it and how to minimize the salt mix in sand. The link is from the Anchorage area but applies throughout the state. In Fairbanks they use even less salt.
http://anchoragecreeks.org/media/publications/road_sanding.pdf

 

[Pilot]

Atgreen's comments are informative, but what he says about sand filling ditches is questionable. He says they spread 1.5 yards per mile. You would have to spread the sand a lot of times to become a problem--a mile is 1760 yards long and ditches are usually on both sides of the road.

Also, around here, they often go back and sweep it up after the need has passed, so only a portion ends up in the ditches. I presume they put it back in the storage area for reuse. OTOH, we only get snow a few times a year and sometimes only in the higher elevations.

Sand works fine out here in Oregon and also worked well where we were in Montana. Driving in Oregon is worse than Montana because most of our snow is heavy and wet, whereas in Montana it was usually dry and traffic cleared the roads in about 24 hours.

 

[atgreene]

Atgreen's comments are informative, but what he says about sand filling ditches is questionable. He says they spread 1.5 yards per mile. You would have to spread the sand a lot of times to become a problem--a mile is 1760 yards long and ditches are usually on both sides of the road.

Also, around here, they often go back and sweep it up after the need has passed, so only a portion ends up in the ditches. I presume they put it back in the storage area for reuse. OTOH, we only get snow a few times a year and sometimes only in the higher elevations.

Sand works fine out here in Oregon and also worked well where we were in Montana. Driving in Oregon is worse than Montana because most of our snow is heavy and wet, whereas in Montana it was usually dry and traffic cleared the roads in about 24 hours.

We do not reuse the sand. If you have ever seen the sand that is swept up, you'll understand why.

As to the amount of sand, my town spreads about 2500 yards per year on approximately 50 miles of road, that's obviously 50 yards per mile. When washed down the roads and ditches to the low spots, it collects at the "catch" areas at each culvert until those are full, allowing sand and silt to fill the culverts. Take 4-5 years of sand washing into ditches and you see the problem. Some areas on the mountain that get sanded heavy and have lots of wash should have the culvert ends cleaned yearly, I'd be happy to show you some pics to prove it. I teach road maintenance and erosion control, I've spent a lot of years watching and learning and I was only trying to pass on what it is like around here.

 

[atgreene]

Do I see a slight contradiction here or did I miss something?

By using the proper amount of salt, less salt is used than salt sand mixed. I may not have made that entirely clear, but if you do the math, salt spread in a narrow path does it's job better than salt sand mix spread across the width of the road. More of the salt stays in the center of the road and tends to be disipated before it reaches the ditches. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

[QRTRHRS]

I got a chuckle about using sand as it's better than salt.

Sand has salt in it, otherwise the sand would freeze solid and would not be usable. We typically mix salt with sand at any where from 4-1 to 8-1. Thus, for every 4 yards of sand put down, we use 1 yard of salt.

Salt, used straight in this area is layed down at 300-500 lbs. per lane mile.

Sand is spread by the yard, I typically spread sand at about 1.5 yards per mile depending upon road condition. Some nights, it was 2 yards per mile. So, at 1.5 yards per mile, I'm using more salt using salt sand than if I had just laid down straight salt.

When we spread salt, we spread it in a narrow strip in the center of the road. When we use sand, we have to spin it out for coverage, thus using more.

Furthermore, traffic will blow sand off the road/ice within hours, then we return to reapply. Salt once laid down turns to a brine which creeps under the ice breaking it up.

As for temps, a lot of conditions apply, wind, sun, angle of sun (Dec. or March?), air temps but especially road temps all fall into play. We always tried to have the salt down by 5 am for morning traffic to work it in. Lay salt on a Sunday morning at 18 degrees, it doesn't work well. Lay it down with the same temps on a monday with traffic going to work, big difference, works much better.

When I started with public works and snow removal I was a huge sand fan, after seeing how things work from behind the scenes, I've changed my thinking. Salt, when used correctly, is the way to go.

Need more? Sand ends up in the ditches, brooks and lakes causing silt, choking off plantlife and adding phosphorous. It also causes us to re-ditch roads at a much faster pace than normal, often twice as often as roads with no sand.

Salt on the other hand disipates. I will try to find the study from University of New York(?) that studied salt on roads and it's effect on the environment. They found that by late April the salinity of the run-off had returned to normal levels on salt only roads, while sand treated areas carried silt yearround into the bodies of water.

Also, as a 7 generation maple syrup producer, we have lost hundreds of trees to roadside salt. After looking at all the info available, I'll take the properly applied salt over the salt/sand mix whenever possible.

Just my 2 cents, hope it helps.

I spent three winters spreading salt on I-80, 1974-75-76, not much has changed I see. I used to "aggravate" (I won't use the P-word) drivers when we would trickle a narrow path of salt rather than spread it across both lanes. Wide spreading would only allow the salt to get blown off while the trickle would push out from tire heat.

Trouble is, people don't want to be inconvenienced. I really get a kick out of all the quarter backing after snafu where people get snowbound such as what happened near Buffalo a couple of weeks ago. You get too much snow and too much traffic and suddenly, all bets are off.

Seems like the first few snowfalls are a learning curve. Salt gets spread like there is no tomorrow then after a few storms, they get it right. I wish I had pictures of the T-800's my buddy and I were running years ago. We pulled in to the yard after a night running New York State with these totally off white trucks which were brand new and all black and chrome underneath. Everyone's looking and wondering where we had been. You could easily go through a gallon of washer fluid during a run.

 

[crazyal]

I have a friend who runs a local town garage. They mostly use sand over salt. They have a building they keep the sand in so it doesn't get wet and what freezing it does do can easily be broken up with a loader. They do have a sand salt mixture they use when needed and they do have salt for walkways.

The simple fact is sand is cheap, real cheap. Last year there was a shortage of salt so the price was even higher than normal. I think they were buying sand for somewhere between $2 and $3 a yard. I never asked about salt but since sand is local and salt has to be trucked in (from upstate NY I think) using lots of salt has a huge impact on their budget.