I have a crazy idea to pump water

[SPYDERLK]

I am assuming that when you say 120V vacume you are refering to a vacume cleaner. You are not going to be able to pull enough vacume with a vacume cleaner to start a 20' siphon like this. Vacumes suck because they are moveing air thru their impeller. Stop the airflow and you loose the suction(compressor stall). Same thing happens with a leaf blower when you block the outlet.

I think you are going to have trouble making it work with 1/4" drip tube. My pipe friction tables only go down to 1/2" but at 1/2", 100' of pipe at a 2GPM flow will have the equivelent friction of removeing another 13.7' from your head level(same as lowering the water level in your well 13.7 feet!) 1/4" I am guessing would be well over 20 feet of head loss. These figures are for PVC and are calculated using the Hazen-Williams equation for flow in pipes. 1/2" Poly tube(such as is used for most drip tubes) is slightly worse at 13.9 feet of head loss per 100' of pipe at 2 GPM flow rate.

I would reccomend 1" at a MINIMUM, even for a test(only half of a foot of head loss per 100' at 2GPM).

No. At 20' lift at his altitude he has about 10' of lift to spare. He would get about 2GPM out of a 10/13.7 X 100 foot long 1/2" diameter pipe. !/2" is very close to the right diameter for 2GPM delivery since he will need around 80 or 90' of pipe to be able to set his ends at the proper positions. The smaller pipe has the advantage of self limiting the flow and keeping flow velocity high. This latter will better flush bubbles downstream.
Larry

 

[turnkey4099]

Ok. The garden hose seem to be the easiest way to find out if this will work. I bought 120' 5/8" garden hose and this pump from HF.

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This pump can do 26.2ft suction lift. I assume the spec is at sea level. With the altitude adjustment, I'm still within spec. Either way, I will get water out of that well.
I have zero experience with pumps. If I run the pump to suck water out of the well and fill the garden hose to start the siphon process then shutdown the engine, will it continue to flow through the pump? or do I need to disconnect quickly to by pass the pump? I can't run the pump too long....

Note the specs on the pump.

26.2 suction lift. Just as I and others have posted. That is the practical 'suck' maximum at sealevel for any pump or siphon. Looks like you are well under that though.
115 ft max lift comes to about 45 max psi. Not bad for a small pump.

You need to go a bit deeper in planning. That pump makes no mention of being able to self-prime - very few pumps will. My bet is that you are going to have to have a 'footvalve' (allows flow into the pipe/hose but not in reverse) at the bottom. Then prime by pouring water into the the big cap on top of the pump until all bubbles are out. That would be the drill if the pump is installed at the top of the well. If you try to install it downhill, then you have to install a "t" at the top of the well head and prime through that.

Of course doing it that way, you don't need the pump at all.

Installing it downhill, I would put a "T" just before the pump input with a valve on it. Once you have the pump producing water, then open the valve and the siphon bypasses the pump.

As to pipe sizes 'to restrict the flow' as others keep mentioning. Why? A simple valve on a 1/4" or 6" diameter pipe would do the same thing. Engineering with a valve is a lot simpler than trying to determine what pipe size will do the job.

Harry K

 

[AlanB]

I love reading this, if for no other reason then too see how other people would do it.

When I saw the pump, my thought was to use it, to fill the garden hose from something like a tank in a pickup, or better yet the creek just mentioned, so that the siphon would start.

And I cannot imagine that pump would dry start, I would think it would need to be primed, but that would be neat if it would pull that much vacuum to self prime.

 

[stumpfield]

turnkey4099:

This is exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you! I hope I understood your sugguestion....

I will need to prime or do whatever neccessary to get the pump started to fill the hose full of water to start the siphon process. I would open the bypass valve and shut the pump down and let the siphon process take over. A check valve at the bottom of the pickup hose to prevent water draining back into the well and hopefully keep the pump primed in case I lose siphon and have to do this again (another valve to fill with more water if neccessary). A flow control valve on the discharge side to regulate the flow and keep it under the well's recovery rate to prevent any significant water level drop.

Of course, if I excavate down to reduce the lift, it may be easier to start the siphon and may be more reliable. But at only 2gpm and if I don't lose siphon very often, I may not need to do that.

Thanks again. Here's a sketch:

 

[AlanB]

Stump,

If I were doing it,

I would not have the foot valve in the bottom of the well.

I would not have the bypass loop around the pump (it will just flow through the pump) *unless you are doing it so you could physically remove that pump easily (use camlocks) and use it in other areas.

I would have the T on the top of the pump to prime with.

I would have a toilet bowl valve on the outfeed end of the pipe where it drops into your storage tank.

 

[MikeD74T]

turnkey4099:

This is exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you! I hope I understood your sugguestion....

I will need to prime or do whatever neccessary to get the pump started to fill the hose full of water to start the siphon process. I would open the bypass valve and shut the pump down and let the siphon process take over. A check valve at the bottom of the pickup hose to prevent water draining back into the well and hopefully keep the pump primed in case I lose siphon and have to do this again (another valve to fill with more water if neccessary). A flow control valve on the discharge side to regulate the flow and keep it under the well's recovery rate to prevent any significant water level drop.

Of course, if I excavate down to reduce the lift, it may be easier to start the siphon and may be more reliable. But at only 2gpm and if I don't lose siphon very often, I may not need to do that.

Thanks again. Here's a sketch:

You do realize with that setup that you can never remove the pump without breaking the siphon ??????????? MikeD74T

 

[stumpfield]

You do realize with that setup that you can never remove the pump without breaking the siphon ??????????? MikeD74T

You're right. I need 2 more valves. Before and after the pump in order to remove the pump. Can anyone confirm that water *will* flow through the pump (once the siphon process is going...) after the engine is shutdown? Thanks.

 

[AlanB]

Going by the picture.

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that is just a centrifugal pump, yes a siphon or flow will go right through there without it running.

If you have the pump, just open that black cap (prime cap) on the top and start pouring water in and I think you will find it pouring out the nose.

Or, pull the front hose adapter off, and the prime cap, and I believe you will be looking straight through there.

And yes, if you want to pull it out of the line, you would need valves to shut off that flow.

 

[Doc_Bob]

Great thread. So, plan is to lower garden hose into well, fill hose with water, drag filled and capped hose down hill (with open end sitting in well), then see if it siphons once the plug or cap is removed on end of hose that is down the hill.

So, when is it going to be done!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob

 

[stumpfield]

Great thread. So, plan is to lower garden hose into well, fill hose with water, drag filled and capped hose down hill (with open end sitting in well), then see if it siphons once the plug or cap is removed on end of hose that is down the hill.

So, when is it going to be done!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob

Soon...very soon... Wish I can go do it now but have to sit in this office with my suit and tie on until 5pm. I'm counting my days to retirement and move over there full time.

This sounds simple but I've googled and searched everywhere but can't find any reference of anyone already tried this. Strange.... I wonder why?