I have a crazy idea to pump water

[MikeD74T]

Stumpfield, Here's a pressure/altitude chart. Barometric Pressure - Altitude Table Even at 5000' you'd only loose 5.6 feet of lift. A proper siphon will in fact draw a perfect vacuum. You could shorten the lift by trenching down to bedrock (or as deep as practical) going to grade over your hill. If you do that use a pitless adapter at the casing to make future service easier.
In New England we'd have to do something like that to keep things from freezing solid if the siphon stopped. MikeD74T

 

[RonMar]

Thanks. I read the whole thread hoping someone would point that out. His plan will not work. The theoretical maximum siphon is about 33 ft at sea level and drops with every foot of elevation. In areal life, the maximum practical siphone lift is usually figured at 25-26 ft. Again at sea level.

Calcuilation is .46 psi per foot of required lift (weight of water) divided into the average barometric pressure (in psi) at the location minus a bunch of pipe loss. Once it exceeds the barometic pressure you are out of luck.

Harry K

Harry K

But this might work. He states the water height is 20' and he is guessing this is worst case. He could also reduce the lift by a few feet on this by trenching between the well head and the edge of the dropoff. Depending upon how difficult it is to trench, he could reduce the lift by another 3'-5'. Pipe size and the number of fittings will play a factor as we are talking about at least 100' of pipe plus at least 4 fittings. At 1", each fitting will add about the equivelent of 6-8' of additional pipe so you are looking at a calculated length of at least 150'. The tables I have in my Thomas J. Glover pocket ref show that at 2GPM, 100' of 1/2" PVC pipe has 13.7 ft of head loss due to friction(20.55' over 150' of pipe). 1" pipe has 0.5' of loss per 100' of pipe, 1 1/2" pipe has 0.1' of loss per 100'.

How to prime? Well a submersible pump should still flow after the siphon is established, but you would probably want to look for one without a foot or check valve to reduce flow resistance.

Another way to do this would be to put a foot valve on the suction pipe, a shutoff valve on the outlet and a "T" with a valve or cap pointing straight up at the highest point in the siphon. Above this valve or cap you will want a larger cavity to act as a funnel and allow you to get all the air out of the pipe(See attached diagram). With the outlet valve closed, you open the valve or remove the cap at the "T" and fill the system with water from the highest point. The water will seek the lowest point and force the air back out the top. 120'(actual pipe length) of 1" pipe will hold just a little less than 5 gallons of water. Once all the air has found it's way out the funnel and the valve or cap fitting is completely submerged, close the valve or replace the cap. If using a cap, seal it with teflon tape and make sure there is no air trapped in the cap. Whatever is located at the top must be air-tight to withstand the vacume at the highest point of the siphon. Once the system is full, opening the outlet valve should allow gravity on the outlet pipe to pull the water thru the pipe, providing that the foot valve dosn't stick. You will want a foot or check valve that has no spring in it and opens VERY easilly. You also want to insure that the outlet pipe is underwater even if it is just a bucket so the water dosn't run out of the pipe and air infiltrate back up the pipe to break the siphon.

I don't know how much PVC pipe and fittings cost in your neck of the woods, but I estimate I could make up a rig to test this for less than $40. If it works on the ground, then trenching it in, particularly at the top and tapping into the well pipe below grade(reducing lift height) would only improve the system. You would want the pipe under ground anyway.

 

[stumpfield]

Stumpfield, Here's a pressure/altitude chart. Barometric Pressure - Altitude Table Even at 5000' you'd only loose 5.6 feet of lift. A proper siphon will in fact draw a perfect vacuum. You could shorten the lift by trenching down to bedrock (or as deep as practical) going to grade over your hill. If you do that use a pitless adapter at the casing to make future service easier.
In New England we'd have to do something like that to keep things from freezing solid if the siphon stopped. MikeD74T

The altitude at the well location is approx. 2900'. The homesite is somewhere between 2750-2800'. I'm being conservative in using the 30' figure. The water level is at about 20' right now. I could trench down about 10' before hitting bedrock to reduce the lift. I also factor in that the water level could drop another 10'. So, I'm talking about 10' lift most of the time and design it for 20' lift.

The ideal situtation would be I install a pump. Start the pump to prime the system then shut it off and let gravity take over to do siphoning. If I control the flow to 1/2 the well's recovery rate at 1gpm, I'm not too worry about the water level going down. It will only be a 10' lift most of the time. A hybrid system would be perfect. I want to do a proof of concept and try to lift 20' to see if it's possible. I'll trench and reduce the lift and make the system work better and more reliable later. I'm looking to build or buy and larger version of this:

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

 

[RonMar]

You are going to have a hard time lifting water any distance with a squeeze bulb type pump as the built up vacume will ultimatly just keep the bulb collapsed. The gas operated pumps I am trained on in my work for backups to the shipboard firefighting pumps have a hand pump installed. You can use that pump to prime the suction feedline that we hang over the side of the ship. The hand pump uses a rubber diaphram and is forced open and closed by the hand lever. It takes quite a while to lift the water and fill the feed between the foot valve and the pump inlet using that hand pump(12'-15' on my last ship). The larger two cylinder two cycle pump(P-250) also has a capped funnel assembly above the pump inlet for dumping water into the feedline from a bucket. It is actually way easier and faster to open this funnel and fill the feedpipe with buckets dropped over the side and retrieved full with ropes. I am a cheap SOB so that is why I suggested priming the siphon with a bucket. No power required and not much capital invested if it dosn't work out. Once it is running, unless the ends come out from under the water or something leaks air into the system, it should not need to be redone.

If you want to go the pump route, might I suggest something such as this:
Victory - Manual Through-Bulkhead High Capacity Bilge Pump
or some from this page at west marine. West Marine: Plumbing >> Bilge Pumps >> Manual Bilge Pumps You will of course need to verify that these can provide the necessary suction lift.

OR you could use something like this to draw up the water to prime the system using 12V from your car/truck:
Environmental Equipment and Supply - Product Pricing - Field :: Monitoring, Well Supplies, Spill Control, Pump Hardware

 

[Doc_Bob]

I want to do a proof of concept and try to lift 20' to see if it's possible.

I can't wait to see how it goes. How are you going to do a proof of concept?
Bob

 

[stumpfield]

I can't wait to see how it goes. How are you going to do a proof of concept?
Bob

Based on all the comments and sugguestions I got so far:

I'm thinking of using 100' of 1/4" drip irrigation line. Put 1 end about 30' down into the well (water level at 20'). The remaining 70' goes downhill with 30 or 35' drop so it's at least 10' or so below the current water line in the well. I plan to use a 120v vacuum to suck from the end of the line to see if I can start the siphon process. If I can start the siphon this way, I'll let it run and come back in a month to see what happen.

If the vacuum is not strong enough to start the siphon process. I'll fill the line with water 1st. Plug the end of the line with tissue paper and a bit of water soluable clue. Drop the line filled with water into the well. The line should be filled completely with water and very little air. When the clue dissolves, it should open up the end of the line and the siphon process should start. I'll give it a little help with the vacuum at the other end if neccessary.

If this violates the law of physics on earth and exceeded it's practical limitation, then I'll find out about it. It this works, I'll trench down 10' or as far as I can go until I hit solid granite. I'll put a larger line capable of at least 2gpm and make it a permenant installation.

Would it be easier/harder to use 1/4" line vs. 1/2" line? or it doesn't matter? I'm thinking the smaller 1/4" line would be easier to start the siphon with a vacuum because of less volume and control the flow to a minimum.

 

[Doc_Bob]

Would it be easier/harder to use 1/4" line vs. 1/2" line? or it doesn't matter? I'm thinking the smaller 1/4" line would be easier to start the siphon with a vacuum because of less volume and control the flow to a minimum.

1/4 inch might get clogged very easily.
Bob

 

[MossRoad]

These links might be helpful to you.

Siphon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Artesian aquifer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I posted the link to the Artesian well, because if you poke a hole into the aquifer from the side, that is essentially the same thing. Those work very well and you eliminate all the problems of keeping a siphon primed. However, you could slowly drain your entire aquifer. The siphon with a shutoff float valve in your tank would use only what you require. And you don't want to waste any water, even if the supply seems endless. As they have found in many places after decades of pumping, you can drain an underground aquifer.

 

[turnkey4099]

Based on all the comments and sugguestions I got so far:

I'm thinking of using 100' of 1/4" drip irrigation line. Put 1 end about 30' down into the well (water level at 20'). The remaining 70' goes downhill with 30 or 35' drop so it's at least 10' or so below the current water line in the well. I plan to use a 120v vacuum to suck from the end of the line to see if I can start the siphon process. If I can start the siphon this way, I'll let it run and come back in a month to see what happen.

If the vacuum is not strong enough to start the siphon process. I'll fill the line with water 1st. Plug the end of the line with tissue paper and a bit of water soluable clue. Drop the line filled with water into the well. The line should be filled completely with water and very little air. When the clue dissolves, it should open up the end of the line and the siphon process should start. I'll give it a little help with the vacuum at the other end if neccessary.

If this violates the law of physics on earth and exceeded it's practical limitation, then I'll find out about it. It this works, I'll trench down 10' or as far as I can go until I hit solid granite. I'll put a larger line capable of at least 2gpm and make it a permenant installation.

Would it be easier/harder to use 1/4" line vs. 1/2" line? or it doesn't matter? I'm thinking the smaller 1/4" line would be easier to start the siphon with a vacuum because of less volume and control the flow to a minimum.

From your recent posts, the project does look quite practical and I see no reason it won't work.

Your proposed use of 1/4" line for the proof of concept looks dubious to me though. Don't have anything to say yay or nay but my shade tree feeling is that pipe friction will not allow it to work.

Too bad you couldn't do a horizontal bore into that well and convert it to a spring.

Harry K

 

[MikeD74T]

The altitude at the well location is approx. 2900'. The homesite is somewhere between 2750-2800'. I'm being conservative in using the 30' figure. The water level is at about 20' right now. I could trench down about 10' before hitting bedrock to reduce the lift. I also factor in that the water level could drop another 10'. So, I'm talking about 10' lift most of the time and design it for 20' lift.

The ideal situtation would be I install a pump. Start the pump to prime the system then shut it off and let gravity take over to do siphoning. If I control the flow to 1/2 the well's recovery rate at 1gpm, I'm not too worry about the water level going down. It will only be a 10' lift most of the time. A hybrid system would be perfect. I want to do a proof of concept and try to lift 20' to see if it's possible. I'll trench and reduce the lift and make the system work better and more reliable later. I'm looking to build or buy and larger version of this:

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Before you buy a pump, dig the trench, install a pitless adapter at the lowest possible point, & try the siphon with a garden hose. You won't have wasted anything because rigging the pump should go through a pitless anyway. The siphon could save the price of a pump & it's power supply. MikeD74T