If it's cold where you live, what are you heating with and what is it costing?

[RSKY]

A couple who go to our church built a house on a farm they bought close to us. Over the years they have built several houses, lived in them for a while, then sold at a profit and built another one. This was to be their retirement house and it was planned over years down to the last detail. They have an open geothermal system that works on well water instead of the pipes buried in the yard. Water goes thru the system and drains down a rock covered culvert into a pond. Don't know the figures but he says it is the most efficient, cheapest to operate system they have used. And they have used several different types of heating cooling systems over the years. They are on city water for drinking, cleaning, etc. and use the well water only for the geo system and watering the few animals they have.

Does anybody else have a system like this? My sister is planning on building next year and she is looking for info on different systems.

RSKY

 

[LD1]

A couple who go to our church built a house on a farm they bought close to us. Over the years they have built several houses, lived in them for a while, then sold at a profit and built another one. This was to be their retirement house and it was planned over years down to the last detail. They have an open geothermal system that works on well water instead of the pipes buried in the yard. Water goes thru the system and drains down a rock covered culvert into a pond. Don't know the figures but he says it is the most efficient, cheapest to operate system they have used. And they have used several different types of heating cooling systems over the years. They are on city water for drinking, cleaning, etc. and use the well water only for the geo system and watering the few animals they have.

Does anybody else have a system like this? My sister is planning on building next year and she is looking for info on different systems.

RSKY

The open loop systems arent without drawback, and far from the most efficient based on my research.

I have both a well AND a pond and decided to burry a closed horizontal loop system.

The whole concept of geothermal is that groundwater remains mostly constant (more so the deeper you go). So while an air to air unit looses efficency at lower ambient temps outside, a geo will keep pretty consistant on the BTU's produced for the amount of energy consumed. So most people I know that have air to air switch to a backup form of heat somewhere between 25° and 35°. Because its a double whammy. As it gets colder, a air-source produces less and less heat. And at the same time, your house is also loosing more and more heat. A groundsource is no different in that as it gets colder, the house still requires more heat......but the BTU's coming out of the furnace dont decline with declining temps.

The reason for burrying so much pipe in the ground for a typical ground source heat pump is because plastic pipe is an insulator and dirt isnt a very good conductor of heat. So it requires pumping the water through ~600-800' of plastic 3/4" pipe PER TON of system capacity just to get the water feeding the geo to increase the 8-10 degrees required.

With an open loop well, you arent recirculating the water. And you arent cold-saturating your loop field. So the system DOES operate with a little more efficiency on the heat pump side of things.....but on the water pumping side of things, a deep water well pump that has to run constantly everytime the system is on is not nearly as efficient as a low pressure or zero pressure circulating pump to move water through a loop field.

Then you add in some other issues with an open loop system, such as water quality (well water isnt clean controlled water and can scale up a heat exchanger) as well as the worry of pumping a well dry. Or the cost of replacing the pump if the need arises rather than a couple of bolts and doing it in the comfort of the basement.

I have a friend that has an OLD geothermal system. Back when they were first becoming a thing, installed in the late 1980's or early 1990's. It is a very inefficient system in that it uses a well, and is open loop. So there is the expense of pumping the water out of the deep well. But the bad part is that it discharges into his sump pit, So now he has to pump the water a second time to expel it out of his house.

He was wondering why his utilities are so expensive with a geo...thats why. Not sure whether he took my advise, but I told him to plum his discharge water from the furnace directly out of the house and into the 4" drainage tile where his sump pump discharges to. No point in pumping the water twice.

 

[ovrszd]

Sorry, i had my specs wrong. My HRV can only do 160cfm on high, but we run on low or medium mostly. Like 80 watts power draw for 100 cfm, i think.

Sounds like you maybe aren’t fully familiar with erv/HRV technology. An air-to-air heat exchanger with super high surface area exchanges heat between the inward and outbound air flows. So you get close to half of the temperature difference back. Nonetheless, its a very real trade off of exchanging heated inside air for fresh air, in the name of improving indoor air quality. Highly, highly recommended for all new home builds.

It's not discussed by builders here. Only comes into discussion if considering close cell spray foam insulation in walls and ceiling/attic. A couple houses I know of did that. Then were forced to add a system similar to yours to cure the problem that building too tight created.

 

[deezler]

All I am saying is you have to factor the VALUE of the wood you are burning to realize any savings. Compare that VALUE to alternative means.

Don't know what 8-12 face cords bring in your area.

Selling firewood is no bid deal. Maybe other areas are different? I have had no complaints. Probably because I don't treat it as a business. And years of burning firewood....

I just don't agree with the argument that "some" who burn, claim they save hundreds of dollars a month....because in reality, they are turning hundreds of dollars worth of wood into worthless smoke every month and the only thing left is ashes.

Right on. You make a logical point and I understand what you are saying. For you, firewood is basically a commodity that can just as easily be sold as it can be burned yourself - so it's quite silly to ignore the market value of it.

But for me, I wouldn't even know where to begin selling it. I mean, I could make a craigslist post and probably find buyers, but that would mean a lot of additional time and effort by ME, to get it sold, and probably delivered since I don't want randos at my house. And really, I have no interest in doing that at this time given the small scale of my production, not even close to worth it (I may have to engage in this in the future if I get fed up with my engineering day job from cubicle land... lol).

Around here a facecord of nice dried hardwood is generally $100 all day long, and all the way up. I could probably get a minor bargain by ordering in quantity, so I probably burn about $1000 a winter of it for heat. $1000 for 5 months of heat = $200 a month of value (at ~40 hours of work to do annually, I guess my time is $25/hr or so to do it.... not great).

"Worthless smoke"? No way! It's a beautiful, warm, radiating heat that easily keeps my entire 1650 sq ft home around 70f +/- 5°, with minimal hassle. Thankfully my wife loves to make and stoke the fire, so my only real work in the winter time is to reload the rack in the screen porch once or twice a month, which I try to go do when the sun is shining for some vitamin D. Oh an btw, the leftover ashes make excellent soil amendment, compost additive, or icy driveway traction.

But really, from my perspective, I just don't want to sell the wood. Don't want to deal with that extra complication and hassle, and like I said earlier, I do this work in my spare time, somewhat randomly. So I can't commit to delivering to other people on time, etc. As such I just don't see it as a monetary thing - it's just a chore I have to do, that I knew I'd have to do for life when we built the house. So far I love it. If I get injured or disabled, I guess I spend a $1000 a winter, or maybe a bit more to keep it reliable and get it delivered/stacked for us. Still a win. Our house has no furnace or ducting to bedrooms, no natural gas service (our choice upon building) so I guess my only alternative is to run the expensive electric heat, or get a propane tank and figure out what kind of appliance to cram into the house. Yuck, no thanks.

It was 20°f this morning. No fire in the woodstove since Sunday night, was down to 63 inside so the family was complaining. I fired up the mini split just for kicks. It flashed "dF" - needed to run a quick defrost mode for a few mins before it started pumping out some nice strong heat. I was pretty impressed, but it was probably also sucking down 2000 watts or more to do it. Wifey can just make a fire after dropping off the kiddos, so I shut it down after 15 minutes haha.

 

[deezler]

It's not discussed by builders here. Only comes into discussion if considering close cell spray foam insulation in walls and ceiling/attic. A couple houses I know of did that. Then were forced to add a system similar to yours to cure the problem that building too tight created.

Thats disappointing to hear. Regardless of what insulation type you choose, a new built house should be built with pride and made nice and tight. The notion that if you don't use spray foam insulation, then your walls will be leaky enough to properly ventilate the house... I mean, thats just garbage. It truly blows my mind how many sh!tty homes are still being built today in 2022. These subdivision cookie cutter stick houses will be total trash in 100 years or less, and/or simply uneconomical to heat properly if an energy crisis arises.

In reality the air in many people's home is a toxic stew. All the chinese plastic goods, all the laminated furniture, the burnt cooking smoke from the kitchen, the chemicals under the sink and in the bathroom, heck even the intentional "air fresheners" - it's all off-gassing stuff into the air inside your house that you shouldn't ever breathe. Not to mention the decreased oxygen and elevated CO/CO2 that most people deal with inside without even realizing. We have a weather station and the indoor modules measure CO2. If I shut my ventilation off... it goes up quick! Have a few extra humans over to hang out or have a meal and you see the air quality go down in real time. Nothing to lose sleep over if your house feels comfy today - but if you build something new, for the sake of your family, ventilate it properly. A good ERV/HRV is only $1000-2000 and some small ducting.

 

[5030]

Keep in mind that the lower the RH is in your dwelling, the colder it feels even when the heat is set high. I like to maintain about 50% RH in the winter and that entails having a large humidifier running.... and when it's really dry inside, your skin dies out as well as all your wood furniture and both are detrimental to the longevity of them. Solid fuel heating, especially wood and biomass stoves really dry the air out where as central heat (with a furnace mounted humidifier) will keep the indoor air moist and moist is good.

 

[Oaktree]

But honestly for me, no other heat source is cheaper per month than geo period. So it just made sense

But, like every heat source geothermal is very much YMMV. I don't know anyone who has one near me to compare costs, but I'd imagine the up-front cost would be very high. Here in northern New England what passes for soil is mostly rocks, and the frost line can go down 4' or more so just putting in the underground part is going to be a serious investment. Yes, it's a one-time cost, but the payoff period is a long way down the road.

 

[Oaktree]

In reality the air in many people's home is a toxic stew. All the chinese plastic goods, all the laminated furniture, the burnt cooking smoke from the kitchen, the chemicals under the sink and in the bathroom, heck even the intentional "air fresheners" - it's all off-gassing stuff into the air inside your house that you shouldn't ever breathe. Not to mention the decreased oxygen and elevated CO/CO2 that most people deal with inside without even realizing. We have a weather station and the indoor modules measure CO2. If I shut my ventilation off... it goes up quick! Have a few extra humans over to hang out or have a meal and you see the air quality go down in real time. Nothing to lose sleep over if your house feels comfy today - but if you build something new, for the sake of your family, ventilate it properly. A good ERV/HRV is only $1000-2000 and some small ducting.

Not something most people think about, but very true. I can't believe how much of a film develops on the insides of our windows over the winter (and likely walls, furniture, etc. too). And we're breathing this. I can only imagine how much more there'd be in a tight modern house.
Curiously, how much outgassing does spray foam insulation cause?

 

[Jstpssng]

Curiously, how much outgassing does spray foam insulation cause?

So am I. I’ve been considering an attic layer if I ever do get my house built.

 

[deezler]

Not something most people think about, but very true. I can't believe how much of a film develops on the insides of our windows over the winter (and likely walls, furniture, etc. too). And we're breathing this. I can only imagine how much more there'd be in a tight modern house.
Curiously, how much outgassing does spray foam insulation cause?

A fair amount I think. Main reason we elected to go with blown cellulose instead; was reputed to have much less off-gassing. Less R value per inch but we made up for it with 2x6 walls and fully taped 1" polyiso on the outside of our zip wall sheathing.