Ignition Problem Ford 1710

[randy41]

i got a starter for my 1710 and it was in the $200 something range. the new starter was a little different than the original but it works good. a starter for a 1700 shouldn't be much different in price. it might even be the same unit.

 

[JC-jetro]

I haven't given up. Had to take the charger off due to rain. Pulled starter and next step is to have it checked. I will replace the battery ground strap for good measure.

Sidenote, called the local Ford tractor place to see how much a starter was and the parts guy couldn't believe it had a new part listed at $1000. He is checking aftermarket. Looks like this will be bought over the internet, if I need one.

Also anybody have any experience with rebuilding these things? Is it cost effective?

Starter is grounded while on the tractor. Did you try to see if it even turns by jumping the braided side of the starter to your tractor battery or any ole 12 volt battery?

JC,


Randy, OP later on realized that he does have 1700.

 

[Wolfy]

The NewHolland/Ford parts are getting sky high in price...the online aftermarkets are cost effective, the water pump I changed comes to mind...but anyways, yes, get the starter rebuilt. A shop I use usually charges $80, and give a lifetime warranty. They powderblast it, so it comes back looking new. Plus, I like to reuse original parts when possible.

 

[oldford1710]

Starter and solenoid worked great on the bench at the auto parts store. He thought it was the ground and I have new parts for that. Hope he's right. Not sure if I can work on it any more this week, we have a lot on the plate and thankfully the tractor isn't critical path needed this week.

 

[oldford1710]

Finally back to the tractor and it seems to have sort of 'fixed itself' somewhat. Replacing the ground strap didn't seem to help. Today's activity was to check voltage at the ignition switch and then look for shorts. When I turned on the key this time I got some juice (bright red light and horn) and when I went to start got clicks form the voltage regulator but did not turn over.

It's now back on the charger.

 

[oldford1710]

Got two strong lights when jumping but only a click on the starter on first attempt. Now just buzzing on voltage regulator when key to start. Am i off base looking for a short somewhere? This thing has lots of wire covered in tons of electrical tape.

Is it time to go to the tractor shop or get a new tractor?

 

[jinman]

Is it time to go to the tractor shop or get a new tractor?

My vote is to the tractor shop. You've been troubleshooting this for a long time with some really good advice. Yet, you've not solved your problem. With no disrespect meant, you need some help. Starting circuits are NOT rocket science, but it's always the low-tech stuff that gets us. Since your starter worked great when you had it tested, there is no reason it cannot work well in this tractor except for a poor ground or positive wire connection. You need another set of eyes and hands to look at this. Just my opinion. . .

 

[oldford1710]

Thanks. I am leaning toward the shop too. Unfortunately, it being Sunday, I can frustrate myself with it all day because the shop isn't open.

What kills me on this is lack of consistency in the problem. It's a tease. While jumping this morning got a single attempt to turnover and then nothing. Just a buzzing in the voltage regulator now.

Can anyone tell me what the 2 red lights on the main gauge mean? The one with the battery is obvious, just juice in the system. The other with a light bulb type deal is sometimes on, sometimes off. I don't see these idiot lights on my wiring diagram.

 

[oldford1710]

BTW, no offense taken at all. This is going to turn out to be something simple when its found.

 

[JC-jetro]

Thanks. I am leaning toward the shop too. Unfortunately, it being Sunday, I can frustrate myself with it all day because the shop isn't open.

What kills me on this is lack of consistency in the problem. It's a tease. While jumping this morning got a single attempt to turnover and then nothing. Just a buzzing in the voltage regulator now.

Can anyone tell me what the 2 red lights on the main gauge mean? The one with the battery is obvious, just juice in the system. The other with a light bulb type deal is sometimes on, sometimes off. I don't see these idiot lights on my wiring diagram.

You mentioned buzzing from the " voltage regulator" !! Can you identify the voltage regulator on your tractor? where is located? are you talking about click click that comes from the starter? are you maybe talking about the "solenoid"? If the starter is working properly off the tractor there no reason it should not work on the tractor with the exception of poor /open or some wiring issues? click of the solenoid indicator enough battery juice pulls the starter solenoid magnetic coil but nor enough juice to turn over high compression diesel engine. Again can you jump start the tractor by directly jumping the tractor using a jumper cable? if you get your automobile and use a jumper attach the ground of the jumper cable to the starter and red (positive) to braided cable. That should by pass all safeties and tractor wiring . Please make sure the tractor is in NEUTRAL, wheels chocked and nothing in front of your tractor at least 5 feet and no kids around. If you can report back with your findings.

JC,

 

[oldford1710]

Hey JC, The voltage regulator is up under the instrument cowling on a cross bar across the front of the cowling between it and the engine.

It's a 1700, not a 1710.

I may give the bypass (straight 12 volts to the starter) a try again, but I'm guessing that's what they did at the car parts store.

I have kind of an opinion question for you (or anybody else that wants to weigh in) since you know a lot about tractors and I'm new to them:

If it gets taken in to the shop, I would have full maintenance done and have this problem fixed. It also needs 2 front tires (plugs in both and pretty good leak in one) and maybe some other stuff.

At what point is it better to sell it and either get a new Kubota or something or buy a newer used one? Like on a car when its no longer cost effective to keep fixing it.

 

[randy41]

my starter worked off the tractor but would not work on the tractor. when it is tested just to see if its turning there is no load on it.

 

[JC-jetro]

Hey JC, The voltage regulator is up under the instrument cowling on a cross bar across the front of the cowling between it and the engine.

It's a 1700, not a 1710.

I may give the bypass (straight 12 volts to the starter) a try again, but I'm guessing that's what they did at the car parts store.

I have kind of an opinion question for you (or anybody else that wants to weigh in) since you know a lot about tractors and I'm new to them:

If it gets taken in to the shop, I would have full maintenance done and have this problem fixed. It also needs 2 front tires (plugs in both and pretty good leak in one) and maybe some other stuff.

At what point is it better to sell it and either get a new Kubota or something or buy a newer used one? Like on a car when its no longer cost effective to keep fixing it.

Yes that is the voltage regulator. You can buy equivalent of the regulator from NAPA but need to be able to rewire and terminate them properly on the existing plug connector. All I was suggesting was for you to be able to get the tractor running when you need so you have ample time to find and correct the wiring problem. I did have leak in front tires, nothing that a green slime could not solve. I did it for 3 years till I bought a set of 4 play Carlisle tires under $80. A brand new Kubota tire would not have any better faith than my tires under field condition unless you foam fill it. one very good thing about simple tractor like 1700 is that you can find the consumable very easy if yo do it your self and " yourself" is the key." there is always potential for major engine failure but in my opinion if I can always stay on top of lubrication and heat rejection my Ford 1700 will give me many years of service. Saying that if I have major engine and can't easily find part then I'll part with it. My 1700 in the last 6 years costed me less than $3500 and I have already got my money's worth and then some. in my opinion changing tires should not be reason to go to a new tractor. I have seen these tractor run strong even at 4000 hrs so depending how many many hrs and how hard hard they operated your tractor it might still have many good years left. Don't think new Kubotas or any other brand can't have problems. New Kubota starter is as expensive as you'll find them on your 1700. I am also looking for a new rig with a loader and no matter what color I end up will still keep my 1700 as I think it is just about perfect and utilitarian for the tasks I used it up to now and most likely will be around for a long time.

JC,


ps. you can take the tires off and take it to the shop , no need to take the whole tractor. I also got a side grinder with a wire brush cleaned the inside of the rim, put two layers of good oil based rust proofing inside of the rim before two new tires.



edit. I just noticed that you tested it on the tractor and it did not work. did you hear that the solenoid pick up? did yo hear any gear engaging? there might be that the contacts (brushes) don't transmit enough electricity causing inadequate torque developed.

 

[oldford1710]

Good idea on the slime. I will give starting it a shot.

Are you saying it might be the voltage regulator?

Thanks for your help and opinion.

 

[oldford1710]

Thank you JC for leading me from obsessing about fixing the thing to getting it running so I can use it while I figure this out.

I think like most folks I don't need the tractor daily, but when I really need it there isn't another option.

When I hit the positive to the braided wire and ground to the starter case I first got a turnover. Did it again and no turnover, but the starter motor is running disengaged. I hit the kicker on the solenoid and it clicked.

I guess I need to rig something up to hit the solenoid at the same time I attempt to start this way. Any idea on how to glow on bypass? It likes to glow even when warm outside to start.

BTW, unless you think it is related to the voltage regulator, I'm back to a simple short or the ignition assembly.

 

[JC-jetro]

Thank you JC for leading me from obsessing about fixing the thing to getting it running so I can use it while I figure this out.

I think like most folks I don't need the tractor daily, but when I really need it there isn't another option.

When I hit the positive to the braided wire and ground to the starter case I first got a turnover. Did it again and no turnover, but the starter motor is running disengaged. I hit the kicker on the solenoid and it clicked.

I guess I need to rig something up to hit the solenoid at the same time I attempt to start this way. Any idea on how to glow on bypass? It likes to glow even when warm outside to start.




BTW, unless you think it is related to the voltage regulator, I'm back to a simple short or the ignition assembly.

Okay, look the pic below, the red cable is always hot since is directly connected to the battery, then you see a white wire goes to solenoid. When the switch is turned to start the white wire will be energized and pulls the solenoid. When the solenoid is pulled it does two things, first it will move the starter gear to mesh with the flywheel and secondly it make the contact between red wire and braided/bare wire internally. That will energize the starter winding so it would turn. If you get the positive of the jumper wire on the red and negative to a ground near or on the starter at that point nothing will happen. If then you get a screw driver or piece of heavy wire and jump between red and white on the solenoid it should pick both the coil up and then turn the starter. if you jump between red and bare wire then starter will turn as you experienced but bypasses the solenoid so no starter gear engagement with the flywheel.



On the glow plugs, there is nothing fancy about them, they are grounded to the block and have a black wire feeding them current when switch is on glow like pic below. Simply get a 14 Gauge wire and directly connect it to batter NO MORE THAN 15 seconds, disconnect and try to jump the starter and hopefully engine will come on.




JC,

PS. I don't think you have issue with the Voltage Regulator as you described so far. The regulator on 1700 is not solid state and is mechanical with coil and contacts. Hums is normal. Even with a bad VR you still should have able to jump the tractor successfully.

 

[oldford1710]

Worked through the solenoid, but I think I need heavier jumper cables. Getting real slow turnover and some heat on the cables.

I saw the single wire to the glow plugs but I wasn't sure if that was OK to jump. Thanks for that info too.

 

[JC-jetro]

Worked through the solenoid, but I think I need heavier jumper cables. Getting real slow turnover and some heat on the cables.

I saw the single wire to the glow plugs but I wasn't sure if that was OK to jump. Thanks for that info too.

Good, patience and perseverance will almost always bear fruit: Let us know if you get the darned thing running.

JC,

 

[oldford1710]

Hardly know where to re-start. Starting with jumpers direct to starter is a decent workaround so the electrical issue was on the back burner. Water pump went out too, but that's just bolts, thank goodness.

Remember this is a 1700, not a 1710.

Strange electrical symptoms (pulled apart the 'dashboard for good access finally):

Good 12 volts at the yellow main on key switch

Turn key to on and get only 5-6 volts at red (wire to fuse block)

Power at fuses, but no accessories

Turn Key to start and get 5-6 volts at white (wire to starter solenoid kicker),

lower level voltage at solenoid

Here is where it get strange - disconnect the voltage regulator, and instead of getting 5 - 6 volts at the key outputs, I get a full 12 volts - but no activity on either the starter or the accessories.

Pulled the yellow 12 volt 'in' wine off the key switch and went direct to out terminals on key switch (bypass the switch) and no joy on any circuit - starter, glow plug or accessories with voltage reg either connected or disconnected.

Glow plugs work fine with my direct wire to battery setup for the workaround start.

I will keep troubleshooting this, but I switched over to pulling the water pump off since there is no workaround for that issue. I'm reluctant to take it to the New Holland shop, at $70 per hour this sort of thing could end up costing a fortune to troubleshoot.

I'm abandoning the new new tractor idea as well. I ended up getting two new front tires. The hole was so big I would need a plug the size of 2 thumbs to fix. Way beyond slime. AZ sun is hard on rubber and they looked like original equipment. Now a new water-pump.

If anybody has any ideas, I really appreciate the help. I'll mull on this, but my main puzzle is why disconnecting the voltage reg causes the output voltage change on the key switch.

Thanks in advance for telling me what's wrong with this thing.

 

[oldford1710]

One more note - I didn't check when running, but it looks like the battery is charging off the alternator since there is a good 12.5 volts there. The only electrical component that seems to work is the temp gauge - I got to see it climb fast when the water pump failed!!