I'm contemplating investing in timber land in New England

[clemsonfor]

And yes what they say. GET a forester before you buy and pay him to cruise a property your interested in, he can give you a volume, the current growth rate and a current market value for all of it including firewood. And when selling it has been proven that you will recoup your cost in most cases of having a forester handle the transaction for you. Yea it may cost you 10% but I know "who" to call to get you top dollar, instead of the "guy" that you know or your neighbor knows or used. Many of these guys are real and honest business men but due to volume of wood they move to a mill they get a lower price to work with which means there is less for you on the stump than a large high volume logger. They large logger gets a higher price as they are a more integral part to that mill as they supple a lot higher percentage of the raw material needed to run the mill, if they don't bring in their wood it has a more of an effect than the small guy that may bring 15 loads a week.

 

[DieselnHooters]

Clemsonfor thank you for the reference to forestryforum, good informative site indeed :thumbsup:


www.forestryforum.com

 

[crazyal]

In Vermont you'll need a forester to come up with a management plan for your land if you want to get a discount on property taxes. That will mean following the forester's plan on harvesting the timber. If I remember correctly a forester gets paid a portion of the timber sales.

Years ago I remember reading a government study on the amount of land one would need to own to get enough wood to burn as a primary source of heat and be self replenishing. It also talked about how you needed to manage issues like crowding. Here's a pdf from UNH about how to determine how many cords per acre.
http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource001044_Rep1200.pdf

 

[dmccarty]

As much as most like to leave all the hardwood or the huge trees, this is usually the worst thing you can do, actually leaving any trees is not a good thing. What happens here in the south is that they turn to lightning rods, and over then next 20 years till a new forest establishes you will slowly loose all those remainder "relic" trees. The other thing is that they get wind thrown very easily as well as more prone to ice breakage. The reason is that when in a forest situation they help hold each other up, sounds strange but it happens every time we thin somewhere. The less dense the final stand ends up being the more prone to "windthrow" it is.

Even professional foresters still leave this and will still do it even without a landowner involved, I personally don't like doing it. If I am to do it I will leave more of a shelterwood situation.

Dan you closer to the NC furniture market and probably more small HW mills but in my area, they cant even use hardwoods the size you talk about, 24" logs are about the top of the range that can be used here, so most large trees including pine are left just because there is not market for them. I leave them before cutting and leaving them on the ground. Difference is that pines can be made into poles when there a large diameter, some mills use what they call rasta head debarkers in stead of the tipical ring debarkers which is really the limiting factor at the mills, its not really the sawheads. A rasta head debarker is a head that shaves the tree as it is in a chuck like on lath, the tree stays and the rasta head moves on a horizontal plane as the tree spins. A ring debarker is a ring that either has knives I think or chains in some cases, and over a certain size the tree cant actually go into the "ring". OK sorry for a totally random rant, but since I wrote it I wont delete it. haha

We kept 10-15 acres from being timbered. In hindsight, we should have timbered it because of a few storms with straight line winds and lightning strikes. We are on a bit of high ground and we have lost quite a few trees to lightning and I suspect more. The guys that timbered our place could handle big trees and they got some pretty big pines. I kept this one area out of the logging operation because it was almost all hardwood and most of the money is in pine on a per acre basis, we wanted one area just left alone, and this area would have been problematic accessing. The big trees blown down are still there because I will have to build a tractor trail into that section of woods.

This section of woods did shelter the trees pretty well but we had one storm that I think might have been part twister. You could see the trail the storm left in the woods and there were three thin trees that had grown up in the tall pine stand, that were bent to the grounds. Kinda amazing to see those trees bent over. They have sorta straitened up over the years. Another storm came through and took out more big trees. Then there are lightning strikes. I saw one hit one of the big trees 100-200 feet behind the house. Seeing and hearing a strike that close is rather interesting..... :shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing: There is a tree a fair distance south of the house that I assume was hit by lightning because it suddenly died. It is far enough in the woods to leave to the wood peckers.

Later,
Dan

 

[clemsonfor]

In Vermont you'll need a forester to come up with a management plan for your land if you want to get a discount on property taxes. That will mean following the forester's plan on harvesting the timber. If I remember correctly a forester gets paid a portion of the timber sales.

Years ago I remember reading a government study on the amount of land one would need to own to get enough wood to burn as a primary source of heat and be self replenishing. It also talked about how you needed to manage issues like crowding. Here's a pdf from UNH about how to determine how many cords per acre.
http://extension.unh.edu/resources/files/Resource001044_Rep1200.pdf

It depends. If I write you a management plan (check many states forestry commissions will write these for free, they do here in SC) and that is all you pay me to do, I have no right to a portion of the future timber sales. Now if I draw up a contract that I am your forester and I write a plan for you and handle the harvest, then what ever we have detailed to cover my portion will be how im paid. Foresters can be paid on commission which is a percentage of a harvest, could be as low as 8% for a clearcut or as high as say 14% for a marked thinning sale (just guessing as I am not a consultant). Or you could pay a forester straight time if you both agree on how you will define time.

But if you get a management plan detailing harvest and times that they should be performed and what prescription needs to be implemented when, you can then take a few classes like Dan mentioned at the forestry college for landowners then get advice from the state and do the sale your self with a list of timber buyers from the local state forestry agency, Society of American foresters, and state forestry groups . I don't advise this if you don't plan on doing your homework though.

 

[clemsonfor]

We kept 10-15 acres from being timbered. In hindsight, we should have timbered it because of a few storms with straight line winds and lightning strikes. We are on a bit of high ground and we have lost quite a few trees to lightning and I suspect more. The guys that timbered our place could handle big trees and they got some pretty big pines. I kept this one area out of the logging operation because it was almost all hardwood and most of the money is in pine on a per acre basis, we wanted one area just left alone, and this area would have been problematic accessing. The big trees blown down are still there because I will have to build a tractor trail into that section of woods.

This section of woods did shelter the trees pretty well but we had one storm that I think might have been part twister. You could see the trail the storm left in the woods and there were three thin trees that had grown up in the tall pine stand, that were bent to the grounds. Kinda amazing to see those trees bent over. They have sorta straitened up over the years. Another storm came through and took out more big trees. Then there are lightning strikes. I saw one hit one of the big trees 100-200 feet behind the house. Seeing and hearing a strike that close is rather interesting..... :shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing: There is a tree a fair distance south of the house that I assume was hit by lightning because it suddenly died. It is far enough in the woods to leave to the wood peckers.

Later,
Dan

I sell timber/manage on over 200,000 acres of federal property, this is pretty much what I have seen happen in all different timber types in all different areas, soil types and topography. I have seen tornadoes that have pretty much leveled 40+ acres, and twisted 20"diameter trees in half and thrown the tops 50 feet away.

But thanks for putting your experience on this in there as well, sometimes folks don't believe a "professional" like me because they think we want more money or something and that is the reason to clearcut and not leave anything. Granted im giving free advice on an internet forum, I don't think im going to make anything period anyway anyhow! But the point I was trying to make is take your money today or let it rot in the woods over the next few decades.

 

[dave1949]

In Maine, the forest management plan that qualifies land for entry into the Tree Growth program must be prepared by a licensed forester. Every ten years, that plan must be updated by a lic. forester and resubmitted to keep the tax advantages. The Tree Growth program is for lands that are actively managed primarily for timber production. You have to do what the plan says you intend to do, within reason.

There are other "Current Use" tax reduction programs that do not require a lic. forester or a formal plan.
Maine Revenue Services: Property Tax - Current Land Use Programs

 

[vtsnowedin]

In Vermont if you want to invest in timber land you need to look at lots that are at least twenty five acres in size as that is the minimum to get it into the current use tax program which drops the annual taxes from about $40 per acre down to $2.50 per acre per year. Preferably the lot will already be in the program and all the new owner has to do is apply to carry on with the plan that has already been prepared by a forester and approved. Actually 27 acres is better then you can exclude two acres to put a camp on it and not throw yourself out of the program. You would want a lot that has not been cut in the last ten to twenty years except thinning and storm damage cleanups so you would have marketable wood in just a few years but not have to sell it right now while the house building market is depressed. I expect cord-wood prices to keep pace with the cost of heating oil so the future value of even weed trees may return a good profit over the next few years. Certainly have it cruised by professionals before you buy so you don't over pay but lots that have just been clear cut still sell for outrageous prices based on current timber and stumpage prices.

 

[clemsonfor]

In Maine, the forest management plan that qualifies land for entry into the Tree Growth program must be prepared by a licensed forester. Every ten years, that plan must be updated by a lic. forester and resubmitted to keep the tax advantages. The Tree Growth program is for lands that are actively managed primarily for timber production. You have to do what the plan says you intend to do, within reason.

There are other "Current Use" tax reduction programs that do not require a lic. forester or a formal plan.
Maine Revenue Services: Property Tax - Current Land Use Programs

This is the cast with most states and tax programs if they exist and mgt plans. Here in south Carolina the SC state forestry commission will write a landowner a free mgt plan, well you pay for it in your taxes and every other person. But the state has only licensed foresters or they are in limbo on their license and if that is the case they are under supervision of a licensed forester and their work is still going to be considered professional because of who they work for. I would be that Maine and other states have a similar program in place even if you have to pay a minmal amount like $100 for it.

 

[dave1949]

This is the cast with most states and tax programs if they exist and mgt plans. Here in south Carolina the SC state forestry commission will write a landowner a free mgt plan, well you pay for it in your taxes and every other person. But the state has only licensed foresters or they are in limbo on their license and if that is the case they are under supervision of a licensed forester and their work is still going to be considered professional because of who they work for. I would be that Maine and other states have a similar program in place even if you have to pay a minmal amount like $100 for it.

That could well be true, the lic. forester signs off on the work done by someone working under them perhaps. I know you cannot do it yourself here, and the Maine Forest Service doesn't do them either. They will look at your land and make recommendations on what directions to go in and furnish a list of lic. foresters. I think if you know the area MFS person a bit and explain what type of forestry you are most interested in, they might "steer" you towards a few foresters that do that sort of management.