Impact and Torque Wrenches
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patrickg
Veteran Member
Mike, Let us know how this turns out. I don't think you can buy a new pressure washer (good one not a plastic marvel Karcher from discount house) under $450 leaving zero in budget for portable generator. If the gen and washer were supposed to be used together then you have a tough row to hoe. The gen and washer would be small and ineffectual units for $450 new for both. Shopping used, who knows, you might pull it off. Maybe go for the one with highest priority and try to budget the other later. It is rarely a good deal to buy too cheap and end up with poor performance, short life, maint headaches, difficult parts availability etc. Every time I try to pull 10 pounds of utility out of a 5 lb bag I get another lesson in reality.
Good luck,
Patrick
Good luck,
Patrick
patrickg
Veteran Member
Jim, Good stuff but maybe a caveat to go with the admonition to hang out at a local shop for tips.
Many "good ole boys" have very BAD safety practices and bad shop practices too. Don't want a newbie sticking lug nuts in the impact tool and jamming the tool in the general direction of the stud then hitting the go button till it stops spinnin'. Cross threading happens but may not be noticed by a neophyte operator, at least in time to help matters.
Learn it right: Hand start nuts and bolts T H E N use the air tool. Adjust the air/torque setting to the lowest compatible with the job at hand.
Avoid the good-ole-boy one setting fits all (max setting).
And on and on...
Patrick
Many "good ole boys" have very BAD safety practices and bad shop practices too. Don't want a newbie sticking lug nuts in the impact tool and jamming the tool in the general direction of the stud then hitting the go button till it stops spinnin'. Cross threading happens but may not be noticed by a neophyte operator, at least in time to help matters.
Learn it right: Hand start nuts and bolts T H E N use the air tool. Adjust the air/torque setting to the lowest compatible with the job at hand.
Avoid the good-ole-boy one setting fits all (max setting).
And on and on...
Patrick
JOR_EL
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- JD4700 HST w/mods. SUPERBABY
RPM, (remember this smiley-face throughout /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif );
Well, no one could call your fancy-dancer obfuscations "mumbling"! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
But they could be described as descriptions of some of the "mysterious ways" often mentioned when no answer is available.
<font color=blue>Rocks I don't think would be a problem. You and me are supposed to be able to handle mountains: ..etc</font color=blue>
The quotes do not apply. The issue is not what you or I can do, with-or-without faith. The puzzle has a simple issue, relating to omnipotence. To stay with the stated problem; can a supreme all-powerful being create something so large, (symbolically. a ''rock") that he cannot "lift" it.
Obviously, being all-powerful this being should be able to create it . He should then be able to lift it. which would show that He had failed to create the "unliftable" rock, proving that He is not all-powerful.
On the other hand, if He succeeds in making it too heavy for Him to lift, His failing to be able to lift it again proves fallibilty.
Both cases are incompatible with the "given" powers.
There is no answer to be had, of course, ...the entertainment-value of this puzzle lies in observing the reactions to its being posed.
<font color=blue>we need to look at the wider problem</font color=blue>
Which, of course, insures that we won't look at the narrower one! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Just tryin to have a little fun, ...when I conceded to being outgunned by the "math-types" on this list, I should have included astro-physicists /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif .
Interesting stuff, though!
Larry
Well, no one could call your fancy-dancer obfuscations "mumbling"! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
But they could be described as descriptions of some of the "mysterious ways" often mentioned when no answer is available.
<font color=blue>Rocks I don't think would be a problem. You and me are supposed to be able to handle mountains: ..etc</font color=blue>
The quotes do not apply. The issue is not what you or I can do, with-or-without faith. The puzzle has a simple issue, relating to omnipotence. To stay with the stated problem; can a supreme all-powerful being create something so large, (symbolically. a ''rock") that he cannot "lift" it.
Obviously, being all-powerful this being should be able to create it . He should then be able to lift it. which would show that He had failed to create the "unliftable" rock, proving that He is not all-powerful.
On the other hand, if He succeeds in making it too heavy for Him to lift, His failing to be able to lift it again proves fallibilty.
Both cases are incompatible with the "given" powers.
There is no answer to be had, of course, ...the entertainment-value of this puzzle lies in observing the reactions to its being posed.
<font color=blue>we need to look at the wider problem</font color=blue>
Which, of course, insures that we won't look at the narrower one! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Just tryin to have a little fun, ...when I conceded to being outgunned by the "math-types" on this list, I should have included astro-physicists /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif .
Interesting stuff, though!
Larry
Larry,
No sweat - I enjoy puzzles. This reminds me of the passage from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy about the Babel Fish. Have you read it?
(The Babel Fish is a parasitic creature that feeds off brainwaves. The tremendous advantage of having one in your ear is that it instantly translates any language into your native tongue.)
<font color=blue>"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But" says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
"Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic." </font color=blue>
A great series of books if you haven't read them. Judging by the humor on TBN many of you would like them! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Patrick
No sweat - I enjoy puzzles. This reminds me of the passage from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy about the Babel Fish. Have you read it?
(The Babel Fish is a parasitic creature that feeds off brainwaves. The tremendous advantage of having one in your ear is that it instantly translates any language into your native tongue.)
<font color=blue>"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But" says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
"Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic." </font color=blue>
A great series of books if you haven't read them. Judging by the humor on TBN many of you would like them! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Patrick
scruffy
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Larry, HarborFrieght list the 600# 42" X 3/4" Torque Wrench
at 179.99 in their newest catalog.
at 179.99 in their newest catalog.
Anonymous Poster
Epic Contributor
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- Sep 27, 2005
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- 29,678
(The Babel Fish is a parasitic creature that feeds off brainwaves. The tremendous advantage of having one in your ear is that it instantly translates any language into your native tongue.)
In a later passage of the book it is mentioned that the Babel Fish's ability to instantly translate varied languages had led to more war and destruction that any other single thing in the known galaxy.
It is a good book. I will second RPM's recommendation.
In a later passage of the book it is mentioned that the Babel Fish's ability to instantly translate varied languages had led to more war and destruction that any other single thing in the known galaxy.
It is a good book. I will second RPM's recommendation.
jinman
Rest in Peace
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2001
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- Texas - Wise County - Sunset
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- NHTC45D, NH LB75B, Ford Jubilee
...and if the nut comes off everytime you press the trigger on the impact wrench, you probably need to press that other little shiny round...thingy...ahh button...and try again. Have we talked about forward and reverse yet? A neophyte needs to learn about EVERYTHING. Of course, being training professionals, we knew that. ...did the task analysis.../w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
JimI
JimI
Bird
Rest in Peace
<font color=blue>Adjust the air/torque setting to the lowest compatible with the job at hand.</font color=blue>
Takes too much time./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I guess you know that some air impact wrenches have no adjustment, but most do. However, I've almost never seen a mechanic use anything but full power. Assembly lines, of course, make use of the other settings, and using the lower setting to run nuts on, then a torque wrench for the final tightening would be the "best" way to do it, I'm sure.
Bird
Takes too much time./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I guess you know that some air impact wrenches have no adjustment, but most do. However, I've almost never seen a mechanic use anything but full power. Assembly lines, of course, make use of the other settings, and using the lower setting to run nuts on, then a torque wrench for the final tightening would be the "best" way to do it, I'm sure.
Bird
looch
Veteran Member
<font color=blue>Assembly lines, of course, make use of the other settings...</font color=blue>
We do that at work. However, we have this really cool device that allows us to calibrate our air tools. It's a nut mounted in some kind of measuring device. Put the socket on the nut, pull the trigger, and you get a read-out of your torque setting in your choice of formats (inch pound, foot pound, newton meter, etc.)
We do that at work. However, we have this really cool device that allows us to calibrate our air tools. It's a nut mounted in some kind of measuring device. Put the socket on the nut, pull the trigger, and you get a read-out of your torque setting in your choice of formats (inch pound, foot pound, newton meter, etc.)
Bird
Rest in Peace
Paul, is that a Skidmore-Wilhelm? I'm sure there are others on the market, but that's the only one I know anything about; costs a little over $1,000 for each model (plus some neat accessories if you want them). Of course, there are different models for different size air tools.
Bird
Bird
looch
Veteran Member
No, it's a Desoutter. Kind of small for tractor work - handles up to 74 lb-pounds. I don't know what the unit cost and was unable to find pricing online. Just thought it was a neat item - and indispensable in a production environment. If it's anywhere near the 1000$ mark, perhaps a little too pricey for the casual home user.
Bird
Rest in Peace
<font color=blue>indispensable in a production environment</font color=blue>
Absolutely, and too expensive for the rest of us./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Bird
Absolutely, and too expensive for the rest of us./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Bird
patrickg
Veteran Member
A task analysis is a start, but what are the enabling and terminal objectives stated in quantified measurable terms? Has the tool user ever been able to do the job satisfactorily in the past. Is performance punishing or rewarding?
Small horific anecdote regarding air driven impact tools. First this: Consider that if you don't know what you are doing with a wrench, getting hold of an air powered impact wrench is not a good idea. It just empowers you to screw up faster, worse and more often. It is faster, stronger, and has less "feel/feedback" than using a regular wrench.
I was at a location of a popular chain muffler shop that also does shocks, brakes, and like that. They, just for the sake of the story, can be called Midas Muffler and Brake. They are doing a "FREE" brake inspection which only costs about $20 for a full floating rear axle P/U truck cause they have to remove the rear drums and reassemble with new rear axle gaskets.
First the moron they let practice on my truck couldn't remove the second rear wheel because he was blissfully unaware that certain select millions of Ford trucks kept a closely guarded secret, lugs on opposite sides turn in opposite directions. So after trying to tighten the lug off the truck for a couple minutes wuith his powerful air driven impact tool turned up to the max, I suggested that he could try it in the loosening direction. He declined to "DO IT WRONG". I accepted full responsibility. He tried again and voila, the lug came off.
Manager comes over and ushers me back into waiting room with glass viewing port, to watch the animals at play, I mean men at work. I had violated the holy of holies and gone on the shop floor to rescue his miscreant bozo and save them big trouble if they broke something off, but NO get back on your side of the cage. Now with both rear wheels off he tries to take off the axle bolts. From my vantage point I cannot see that he is employing his newly learned F O R D specific secret knowledge to twist off the axle bolts. He broke two trying to tighten them off. Now that he KNEW that that side was bassackwards he was going to apply that new knowledge through extrapolation to everything on that side of the truck. Of course, unfortunately for this bozo, the FORD engineering staff used regular right hand threaded axle bolts on both sides.
They drilled them out and used ez-outs to remove them and then replaced them with bolts that were too short. It would have been fun to watch them try to use their standard ez-out on a left hand thread had he managed to twist one off! So far this chain has only bought me two new two way radio antennas due to their driving the truck through those neat advertising banners they put across their service bays. This was in two separate visits to the same store.
Regarding professional training... Apparently we must allow for slow learners.
Patrick
Small horific anecdote regarding air driven impact tools. First this: Consider that if you don't know what you are doing with a wrench, getting hold of an air powered impact wrench is not a good idea. It just empowers you to screw up faster, worse and more often. It is faster, stronger, and has less "feel/feedback" than using a regular wrench.
I was at a location of a popular chain muffler shop that also does shocks, brakes, and like that. They, just for the sake of the story, can be called Midas Muffler and Brake. They are doing a "FREE" brake inspection which only costs about $20 for a full floating rear axle P/U truck cause they have to remove the rear drums and reassemble with new rear axle gaskets.
First the moron they let practice on my truck couldn't remove the second rear wheel because he was blissfully unaware that certain select millions of Ford trucks kept a closely guarded secret, lugs on opposite sides turn in opposite directions. So after trying to tighten the lug off the truck for a couple minutes wuith his powerful air driven impact tool turned up to the max, I suggested that he could try it in the loosening direction. He declined to "DO IT WRONG". I accepted full responsibility. He tried again and voila, the lug came off.
Manager comes over and ushers me back into waiting room with glass viewing port, to watch the animals at play, I mean men at work. I had violated the holy of holies and gone on the shop floor to rescue his miscreant bozo and save them big trouble if they broke something off, but NO get back on your side of the cage. Now with both rear wheels off he tries to take off the axle bolts. From my vantage point I cannot see that he is employing his newly learned F O R D specific secret knowledge to twist off the axle bolts. He broke two trying to tighten them off. Now that he KNEW that that side was bassackwards he was going to apply that new knowledge through extrapolation to everything on that side of the truck. Of course, unfortunately for this bozo, the FORD engineering staff used regular right hand threaded axle bolts on both sides.
They drilled them out and used ez-outs to remove them and then replaced them with bolts that were too short. It would have been fun to watch them try to use their standard ez-out on a left hand thread had he managed to twist one off! So far this chain has only bought me two new two way radio antennas due to their driving the truck through those neat advertising banners they put across their service bays. This was in two separate visits to the same store.
Regarding professional training... Apparently we must allow for slow learners.
Patrick
patrickg
Veteran Member
Bird, Check my reply to jinman, maybe you'll get a chuckle.
Bird
Rest in Peace
A chuckle? Yes. But I can't say it's too new. I ran into that same problem with the left handed threads on the left side of vehicles, except I was the guy trying to get them off by turning them the wrong way./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif Of course that was a few years ago. You know Chrysler products used to have those left handed threads on their cars. (Does that tell you anything about how long ago it was?) And I didn't have an impact wrench back then, so at least I didn't break anything./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Bird
Bird
Bob_Trevithick
Platinum Member
Sorry to reply to a message almost a year old.. is this an etiquette breach? /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
Just wondering.. do these air impact wrenchs need special sockets, or will normal ones work? I'd like to get a 1/2 inch drive air wrench, but am not sure if I need new sockets for it?
Thanks,
Bob
Just wondering.. do these air impact wrenchs need special sockets, or will normal ones work? I'd like to get a 1/2 inch drive air wrench, but am not sure if I need new sockets for it?
Thanks,
Bob
Bird
Rest in Peace
<font color=blue>is this an etiquette breach?</font color=blue>
None that I know of, but it's been so long ago that I doubt I remember all the thread and ain't gonna go back and read all of it again./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
<font color=blue>do these air impact wrenchs need special sockets, or will normal ones work?</font color=blue>
I know a lot of people use ordinary chrome sockets . . . and get away with it most of the time, although you may break them, so be sure to wear eye protection if you try it./w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif But the simple answer to your question is that you need to use sockets that are designated as "impact sockets". They will not be chrome, they will be 6-point, not 12-point, and you can get them in both standard and deep versions, naturally in SAE or metric. Personally, I don't think you need the expensive ones. I have cheap both SAE and metric 3/8" deep impact socket sets and an SAE 1/2" deep impact socket set that I've used for many years and I've never broken one, but I never use my chrome sockets on the impact wrenches.
None that I know of, but it's been so long ago that I doubt I remember all the thread and ain't gonna go back and read all of it again./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
<font color=blue>do these air impact wrenchs need special sockets, or will normal ones work?</font color=blue>
I know a lot of people use ordinary chrome sockets . . . and get away with it most of the time, although you may break them, so be sure to wear eye protection if you try it./w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif But the simple answer to your question is that you need to use sockets that are designated as "impact sockets". They will not be chrome, they will be 6-point, not 12-point, and you can get them in both standard and deep versions, naturally in SAE or metric. Personally, I don't think you need the expensive ones. I have cheap both SAE and metric 3/8" deep impact socket sets and an SAE 1/2" deep impact socket set that I've used for many years and I've never broken one, but I never use my chrome sockets on the impact wrenches.
Here are some similar links:
