Improving your welding?

[Sodo]

and a student willing and eager to learn. If either one is lacking, well you know the rest.----------If someone is always trying to stay ahead of the conversation by thinking of what to say next, they can't possibly be listening to or watching what is going on in the present.

not necessarily,,,,, trying to stay ahead of the conversation is a true indication of excitement in the subject at hand. The ones who sit back and listen *could be* wishing you'd let them play a game on their phone.

 

[Sodo]

And another one

My neighbours have a 120 volt mig. It will blow a 15 amp breaker in no time so to use it properly you need to install a 20 amp breaker with correspondingly larger wire. Correct me if I'm wrong but a wire that is sized for 20 amps at 120 volts will handle 40 amps on a 240 volt circuit. 40 amps is enough to run a welder so why bother with the 120 volts?

Thats a good point for those who want to weld at full power (on 120v) they need a 20A outlet. With 15A outlet you can weld at lower settings though. I welded for several years on a 15A circuit and popped the breaker a few times.

If neighbor put a 20A breaker in that slot and ran a 12ga wire out to a 20A rated outlet, they would have a 20A circuit which would operate the machine at the max settings. 15Amp circuits are plentiful but getting a 20A 120v circuit can be almost as difficult (for some) or expensive as getting 220v (if your panel has the slots or capacity). But that's for welding at the machines full power setting, which is only required for heavier projects.

With regard to your next question you have a mixup somewhere. 40A@240v is 4 times the power of 20A@120v.

20A x 120volts is 2400watts over one 12ga wire to neutral/ground.
20A x 240volts is 4800watts over two 12ga wires.

40A x 240volts is 9600 watts, pretty sure you need 8ga for 40A.

==========


I see what you're getting at though. Lets say you had a 20A (12-2 wire) going to the garage. Today, it has one breaker, thus 120v on the black wire, and the white is used for neutral + ground.

You're thinking why not add another breaker in the panel (on the other leg) to the white wire, and get 20A@240v = 4800 Watts, 240v at the garage outlet. So all you are changing is adding a breaker at the panel, and changing the outlet in the garage to 240v type, over the same 12ga wire.

That can work, 240v air conditioners use that configuration. Looks like to get full power out of a 211 (for example) they recommend 25A but I bet a 211 would do a LOT on 20A.


======= specs for a Miller 211 ==========
with MVP Millermatic211Auto-SetTM

InputPower
230 V, 25 A, 60 Hz, Single-Phase
120 V, 20 A, 60 Hz, Single-Phase
=========================

 

[muddstopper]

I see what you're getting at though. Lets say you had a 20A (12-2 wire) going to the garage. Today, it has one breaker, thus 120v on the black wire, and the white is used for neutral + ground.

You're thinking why not add another breaker in the panel (on the other leg) to the white wire, and get 20A@240v = 4800 Watts, 240v at the garage outlet. So all you are changing is adding a breaker at the panel, and changing the outlet in the garage to 240v type, over the same 12ga wire.

That can work, 240v air conditioners use that configuration. Looks like to get full power out of a 211 (for example) they recommend 25A but I bet a 211 would do a LOT on 20A.

For what you are suggesting I have one question. If you use the black wire to carry 110v and use the white wire to carry 110v, What are you going to use to carry the ground, The Bare copper wire. You might want to think this over before actually trying it.

 

[CNC Dan]

For what you are suggesting I have one question. If you use the black wire to carry 110v and use the white wire to carry 110v, What are you going to use to carry the ground, The Bare copper wire. You might want to think this over before actually trying it.

That's how they do it. The only thing left out is to tape/paint the white wire black or red. Ground is always bare.

But make sure there arn't any other outlets or lights on that circuit.

Now if you need a neutral wire in addition to the two hot wires + ground, you will need to run some wire.

 

[muddstopper]

I know a lot of older 220v (not 240v) appliances are wired that way. I am not an electrician, but I am pretty sure new code calls for 4wire for balance. I know welders are a variation from the code. I am also not sure, but I believe the little digital lights on the new welders all run off 110v, meaning they are pulling off one leg of the 220v circuit. If this is the case, and I believe it is, a forth wire is needed to act as the return. Not saying I am right, but do think it would be worth checking out before doing the suggested modification.

 

[roadhunter]

I have an old house and that is the way the wiring is done.

 

[muddstopper]

I know of a lot of old houses that are wired as Sodo suggested. I think the new code changes had a lot to do with the new appliances all having some sort of computer crap built into them. 220v for the main functions, but those little computers and lights all running on 110v. 110v needs a return. By using the bare wire in the romex, you are in effect, powering up every receptical in the house that is connected to the same busbar. All the newer welders now seem to have those same little lights and I dont know for sure whether they are powered by 220 or 110, but think if those lights are 110v then the 110v is being pulled off one leg of the 220v circuit and in that case, I believe a 4th wire would be needed. Best talk to a electrician before rewireing a circuit from 110v to 220v, is all I am saying.

 

[k0ua]

I know of a lot of old houses that are wired as Sodo suggested. I think the new code changes had a lot to do with the new appliances all having some sort of computer crap built into them. 220v for the main functions, but those little computers and lights all running on 110v. 110v needs a return. By using the bare wire in the romex, you are in effect, powering up every receptical in the house that is connected to the same busbar. All the newer welders now seem to have those same little lights and I dont know for sure whether they are powered by 220 or 110, but think if those lights are 110v then the 110v is being pulled off one leg of the 220v circuit and in that case, I believe a 4th wire would be needed. Best talk to a electrician before rewireing a circuit from 110v to 220v, is all I am saying.

My Everlast, wires to a simple 50 amp receptacle just like welders have used for decades. 240 volts with two wires and a ground. The electronics is powered by internal powersupply's which are fed with the 240 volts.

 

[CNC Dan]

My Everlast, wires to a simple 50 amp receptacle just like welders have used for decades. 240 volts with two wires and a ground. The electronics is powered by internal powersupply's which are fed with the 240 volts.

That's the way it's done most of the time now. Long ago they started adding 120 volt loads to some 240 volt machines/apliances. Like a clock on an oven. They just used the ground as a neutral. Not allowed today of course. So now for small loads they add a small power supply to provide low voltage, or they use a four wire plug to allow 120 volt loads to get power.

 

[lostcreekranch]

My Everlast, wires to a simple 50 amp receptacle just like welders have used for decades. 240 volts with two wires and a ground. The electronics is powered by internal powersupply's which are fed with the 240 volts.

This is fine (not really) for a 220 VAC only tool but, for a 110 / 220 VAC welder, appliance, etc. you will need a 4 wire / 220 VAC circuit;

Black - 110 VAC
Red -110 VAC
White -Neutral
Green / Bare - ground

I think that, "new work" 220 VAC circuit with only 3 wires will not pass inspection.

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