Independent Pto and use of external ORC

EE_Bota · Jul 19, 2012

JC-jetro said:
Just FYI, in the particular rig that I'm investigating this the tractor needs to be split at the diffy to have access to pto clutch and brake. No way to have access to it from outside of the tractor and short final pto shaft withdrawn from the rear end of the tractor. That's major work and make $60 ORC to look very attractive for mowing application.

JC,

My comments on advantages and disadvantages I meant to be factual. I didn't mean for it to sound so for or against, though I may have come off that way. I don't think it is a very large decision either way. Upon considering pro's and con's, a man should do what is best for his own situation and sensibilities. I don't see any great harm to the operator or the tractor either way, and if I used a rotary cutter a great deal, I may consider an ORC, depending on the number of starts and stops of the PTO.

As I get older, I think about what is easiest on the mind. What we WANT must surely matter sometimes, and if not now, when?

Soundguy · Jul 19, 2012

Jerry/MT said:
The reason I use the ORC is to save wear and tear on pto brake when I use an implement with a high rotational inertia. If the PTO brake wears out, it's my understanding it's a big deal to replace it. Soundguy uses a 10 foot batwing and that has a lot more inertia so he's needs it even more that my unit with a 6 ft cutter. That brake never saved me from hitting anything. If I hit something it was because it was unseen. If I'd have seen it, I wouldn't have hit it.

10' fixed deck and a 15' batwing.

lots of rotational inertia there.

and same as you.. at the speed i mow at.. I find it hard to believe that I could shock load the pto brake slamming the pto off .. and actually have it stop, before I passed over soemthing.

I'd be better off dumping engine rpms to min and grabbing for the mower lift lever and just raise up over the obstacle IMHO

TripleR · Jul 19, 2012

At the risk of beating this to death and knowing full well none of us are likely to or need to change the way we do things but, with kids, dogs, careless adults etc. roaming about even when not expected, I am just plain uncomfortable letting my rotary cutters have to wind down after disengagement. I have operated tractors with and without ORC and now use cutters from 4' to 10' so from low to relatively high inertia. I have never in my 50+ years of operating a tractor from full time day in day out to hobbyist and have never experienced a PTO failure.

I also never had a situation in which anyone or anything was injured while using an ORC, so if a tractor like one of our old Fords has to have an ORC, we run it, but if one has a PTO brake, we don't use one. If I ever break the brake, I'll just have it fixed.

If anyone has come across some of my old posts they will see that I am willing to change the way I operate a tractor if best practices are demonstrated and in fact at one time didn't much care for having a PTO brake. I am far from an expert and am always willing to learn something new which often happens reading these forums.

I have ALWAYS told wife, kids, grand kids to STAY AWAY from a tractor until you can get the attention of the operator and they shut everything down. On two occasions in the past two years, I have had kids/people approach my tractor that I failed to see until they were way too close.

Soundguy · Jul 19, 2012

i'm not advocating you change any of your habits based on what i do.. however in your post you mention people and dogs roaming around.

them are called tresspassers..

as much as I like to spin a wrench on my tractors.. crawling into that center section after muscling off a top cover that may way more than I do.. I think I'll keep the orc..

i'm probably too used to working around heavy equipment all day on our road jobs. big, cut you in half, or mash you flat stuff. I know our milling machines have no brake on the milling drum.. that's the sort of thing that grinds up roads a couple feet deet.. like a huged 10' wide rototiller. you just learn to real aware of your souroundings.

if someone approaches that thing running.. that are putting themselves on the darwin candidate list..

have a good un!

soundguy

JC-jetro · Jul 19, 2012

It's almost dead, but not quite

I do appreciate all the lively inputs on this thread. As we find ourselves again that we're dealing with "shade of grey" all the time. I don't think there is one set of right answer here that qualifies for any given situation. I think for my application having an independent PTO with brake is a new and much welcomed feature for 80% of my type of work, for the remainder $60 investment is nothing compared to price of the tractor and might give me a bit of "warm and fuzzy":laughing:.

Even on my little ole Ford 1700 with transmission driven pto I engage the pto by first raising the deck just a hair, engage pto at very low idle, making sure nothing is binding, lower the deck to the height needed and then up the rpm to 540 pto speed. I do the reverse when turning the pto off. I never have had grinding or pto lever jumping out.

Having a true independent pto with brake is the luxury that I never had to be remedied soon.

JC,

TripleR · Jul 19, 2012

Soundguy said:
i'm not advocating you change any of your habits based on what i do.. however in your post you mention people and dogs roaming around. them are called tresspassers..

as much as I like to spin a wrench on my tractors.. crawling into that center section after muscling off a top cover that may way more than I do.. I think I'll keep the orc..

i'm probably too used to working around heavy equipment all day on our road jobs. big, cut you in half, or mash you flat stuff. I know our milling machines have no brake on the milling drum.. that's the sort of thing that grinds up roads a couple feet deet.. like a huged 10' wide rototiller. you just learn to real aware of your souroundings. if someone approaches that thing running.. that are putting themselves on the darwin candidate list..

have a good un!

soundguy

Oh, I know that nor I you and I have referenced different uses, knowledge, background etc., what works well for one often not so much with others.

We have a variety of people with different levels of experience on TBN which often makes a significant difference. Someone like you will often have a different level of awareness than us occasional users. When I was driving a tractor every day, my comfort level may very well have been higher than it is now, I will go days without touching a tractor during the summer and weeks or months in the winter.

As to "trespassers", that is true of the dogs as we no longer own any, but they simply won't listen to me. One child who came too close was a young step grandson I don't get to see often and who lives in town. He was out of the truck and running toward me before anyone could stop him. I also am blessed/cursed with several beautiful teen age grand daughters who occasionally rotate boyfriends from the city and as much as I would have liked to get rid of one occasionally, I'm skeptical I could explain away their disappearance; course now that I think about maybe I can just say Soundguy said it would be OK.:laughing:

You have a good one too, I am shortly heading out to the big city to visit one of my daughters; may finally get some much needed rain today.:thumbsup:

Soundguy · Jul 19, 2012

we had rain yesterday.. plenty of it. and need more.

yep.. no correct answer for all applications and situations.

best to simply use the main safety feature every time ( your brain ).. and decide what's safe that day for that application.. etc.

jinman · Jul 19, 2012

JC, I'd ask that very good Kubota dealer you have about how many clutch/brake failures they have. They are the people who are not guessing on the issue. What I think or anyone else doesn't affect their real numbers. If they say that your model tractor has significant failures, then an ORC might be called for. Otherwise, I'd say that you can save that brake so it stays shiny new and have a clutch disc failure that causes you to have to open up the tractor. Everytime you start your PTO, you use that clutch whether you have an ORC or not. The brake pressure plates and disc come into play by being set with spring pressure when the hydraulic solenoid valve is disengaged. I'm not sure, but that spring pressure is probably enough to stop the PTO without slamming it to a sudden stop. On my tractor, the brake disc is a larger diameter disc than the clutch discs. I'm not sure about your Kubota model, but the cross-section looks very similar in configuration to the one in my New Holland. Of course I can't be sure about larger tractors, but I can be sure that the clutch pack gets exercised everytime the PTO is engaged, ORC or not.

JC-jetro · Jul 19, 2012

jinman said:
JC, I'd ask that very good Kubota dealer you have about how many clutch/brake failures they have. They are the people who are not guessing on the issue. What I think or anyone else doesn't affect their real numbers. If they say that your model tractor has significant failures, then an ORC might be called for. Otherwise, I'd say that you can save that brake so it stays shiny new and have a clutch disc failure that causes you to have to open up the tractor. Everytime you start your PTO, you use that clutch whether you have an ORC or not. The brake pressure plates and disc come into play by being set with spring pressure when the hydraulic solenoid valve is disengaged. I'm not sure, but that spring pressure is probably enough to stop the PTO without slamming it to a sudden stop. On my tractor, the brake disc is a larger diameter disc than the clutch discs. I'm not sure about your Kubota model, but the cross-section looks very similar in configuration to the one in my New Holland. Of course I can't be sure about larger tractors, but I can be sure that the clutch pack gets exercised everytime the PTO is engaged, ORC or not.

Jim,

Everything you said is right on. The service mgr and I actually talked about it and he said for most part they rarely do major repair on the PTO unless real abuse was taking place and pretty much Operator has a huge part in it. The design is exactly how you said it as the return spring in the clutch pack normally applies pressure to disk brake #15 against brake plate #16. Upon activation of release solenoid the hyd oil pressurizes piston #5 against the pto clutch case separating the brake , quizzing the clutch pack and PTO final shaft rotation. I this case it appears the brake disk dia is larger than pto clutch disk like yours ,but brake has only one surface where the clutch pack has many. When we're putting the tractor together I'll have a few more questions and would ask if they have a manifest for final calibration data of hyd as they test the tractors prior to putting it on a crate. The synchronized shuttle transmission for L4600 is exactly the same as MX4700-5100 or their utility Ag and he thinks it is as robust as it comes for it's class.

Again, I appreciate all the good comments here. Thanks,

JC,

He also believed ORC would not hurt it it made me happy. As you he did not find it all that necessary.