Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop

   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #21  
Forgot about the walls. I am "bookshelving" like your picture on the right. 24" centers, and put batts in between. I have 6" walls, so I am using 2X4's and 6" insulation. The 2X4's seem to work out the best, and still support the insulation.
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #22  
I've gone back and forth on the R value for the ceiling. In a house, I like to have 12 inches of blown insulation. That's about the max you can put in for effectiveness. After that, you are just wasting money. Less then that, and you are still losing energy.

For the shop, I'm not sure if I need maximum insulation. I need some, but really only need to make it a little bit better. I thought about this all day, and I like the idea of two inch foam screwed into my purlins more and more. It won't affect my vents, it won't close in my open space and I will never have to worry about climbing into an attic to run a wire or anything else.

One of the big holdups on doing this was getting a line run to the ceiling for a propane heater. I wanted that in before putting up the metal and blowing in the insulation. With the foam attached to the purlins, I still have access to my trusses and can run a line for propane anytime I want.

Since this is something that will only be heated a few times a year, if I lose a little energy heating it, it's still way better then where I'm at now.

I'm also wondering what effect the two inch foam panels will have on the heat in summer? I bet it helps my shop stay cooler. Even a couple degrees would be welcome when it's in the high 90's!!!

Thanks for the suggestion, it's what makes this site so great. Out of nowhere, the answer to a question that I didn't even know that I had!!!!

Eddie
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #23  
I don't know if you could apply this to your situation but when I built my house/garage 2 years ago I took some advice and used this foil bubble wrap and it is fantastic. My house and attached garage is conventional 2x4 framed and I used 1x4 pine lath boards spaced 2' apart on the trusses instead of purlins. I then laid the bubblewrap with button cap nails and sealed all seams with aluminum tape. Then the metal went on. The bubblewrap sags a little between the lath boards creating an airspace. You can get the bubblewrap with the foil on both sides - this is what I used in my house and garage, or you can get it with white on one side (slightly cheaper) - this is what I'm using in the shed I'm building now. This bubblewrap has a low R value, around 1.2 but the real benefit is the radiant heat blockage - they claim about 95% and it is amazing how much it helps !! My garage is 10' wall height and I don't have a ceiling installed yet, just the bubblewrap in the roof. I run my woodstove out there 24/7 in winter and it is usually 70 - 75 degrees at head level - much warmer up 16' in the peak. Even so, frost and snow will stay on the metal roof !!! Besides the radiant factor the plastic bubblewrap is a very good moisture barrier and sealing it with the tape really tightened the place up - no drafts (I did walls & roof). It comes in 4'x125' rolls and the last I bought it I think it was right around $150 a roll. For my ridge vents I just cut the wrap and stapled it back to the lath inside the roof and then I put some screening in to keep critters out. In the summer my garage stays nice & cool even with the dark green metal roof and full sun all day. If you were ever so inclined to take your metal off for any reason, it would be a wise investment to install the bubblwrap then. Don't know if it would be effective if installed on the inside somehow.
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop
  • Thread Starter
#24  
I'm assuming you're talking about Prodex products. I did look at that but I think I've found an economical solution.

I have found a guy that tore down several large chicken houses for the trusses and he has hundreds of 4' x 21' x 1.5" thick Dow blue board insulation sheets at $0.25/sq. ft. (This would be $8 per 4'x8' sheet compared to probably triple that for new) Counting insulating everything including my overhead door panels comes to around $500. Pulling a trailer over there tomorrow and if it's not too damaged and it don't smell like chicken manure I think I might have a pretty good deal! If it works out it may be several weeks before I get a chance to install, but when I do I'll post some pics. Thanks everyone for your posts and help in this! TBN is a great place to get ideas!
Later,
Ralph
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #25  
Keep us updated. I'm curious how it works for you and what you use to fasten them to the purlins. Nails wold be fastest is you had them long enough with a big enough head on them. Maybe a washer on the nail? I'm still thinking of using 3 inch deck screws with big fender washers to hold them in place. The expanding foam might be a good idea around the gaps if there are any. Maybe a tube of silicone would be cheaper? Walmart has it cheaper then anybody else.

Eddie
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #26  
Keep us updated. I'm curious how it works for you and what you use to fasten them to the purlins. Nails wold be fastest is you had them long enough with a big enough head on them. Maybe a washer on the nail? I'm still thinking of using 3 inch deck screws with big fender washers to hold them in place. The expanding foam might be a good idea around the gaps if there are any. Maybe a tube of silicone would be cheaper? Walmart has it cheaper then anybody else.

Eddie

What I call button cap nails are available everywhere - I think they are mainly used for installing foam boards. It's a ring shank nail with a large, slightly domed plastic washer 15/16" in diameter on it. They come in various lengths, I use the 1" for the bubblewrap, but have seen them over 2" in length. Our small town lumber company sells them by the box or loose by the pound. Lowe's, Home Depot and all have them by the box, 1 lb. or a larger box of 2000 nails. The washer makes it very easy to install the nails without bashing fingers !!
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #27  
I'm assuming you're talking about Prodex products. I did look at that but I think I've found an economical solution.

I have found a guy that tore down several large chicken houses for the trusses and he has hundreds of 4' x 21' x 1.5" thick Dow blue board insulation sheets at $0.25/sq. ft. (This would be $8 per 4'x8' sheet compared to probably triple that for new) Counting insulating everything including my overhead door panels comes to around $500. Pulling a trailer over there tomorrow and if it's not too damaged and it don't smell like chicken manure I think I might have a pretty good deal! If it works out it may be several weeks before I get a chance to install, but when I do I'll post some pics. Thanks everyone for your posts and help in this! TBN is a great place to get ideas!
Later,
Ralph


Good for you! Even if one side was exposed to the chickens, the other side has to still be in good shape.:eek::)
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #28  
I have a similarly constructed workshop. I used 1" foam with a radiant barrier in between the horizontal beams. Then went back in and put 2x4's on 16" centers. R-13 insulation (craft faced) then sheetrock.

101_0035.JPG


Excuse the mess in the following. They were taken a day after we got everything inside and were still arranging stuff.

img314.jpg

img315.jpg

img316.jpg


Still working on it. Gotta do the ceiling next. I bought solarguard to put in between the perlins.

This shop will be air conditioned. I work in it daily.
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #29  
In a house, I like to have 12 inches of blown insulation. That's about the max you can put in for effectiveness. After that, you are just wasting money. Less then that, and you are still losing energy.
Eddie

Eddie, just wondering, why do you feel anything more than 12 inches of insulation in a ceiling is a waste? I'm trying to determine how much insulation I need in the ceiling of my Morton building. I always thought the more the better, apparently not. Can you please explain your comment a little better? Thanks.
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #30  
Eddie, just wondering, why do you feel anything more than 12 inches of insulation in a ceiling is a waste? I'm trying to determine how much insulation I need in the ceiling of my Morton building. I always thought the more the better, apparently not. Can you please explain your comment a little better? Thanks.

Thanks for asking this as it might have been misleading. Here, code is R30 for a ceiling in a residential home. R30 is reached at ten inches. R3 per inch is about how it's figured. Going two extra inches exceeds code and allows for some settling over time.

Adding more then 12 inches has a few drawbacks with minimal reward. Every inch costs money. There is a point where you don't get anything back with more. Kind of like how heavy of a jacket you need to stay warm. There is a point were you don't need to put on any more layers. You can gain a higher R factor with thicker insulation, but you start getting into that area of it not making a difference, or it's not something that you can tell in energy savings.

Most homes that I work on have parts of the 2x6's in their attic showing. Sometimes I can see the sheetrock, but usually they have some level of insulation. They are also paying allot on energy, both to cool and heat the house. Here in the south, cooling a house is done allot more then heating one. When going from 4 to 6 inches of insulation, up to 12 inches, I've heard over and over again from them that their energy bill has dropped usage has dropped by 30 percent.

It's not just the thickness of the insulation, but also the uniformity of it. I create a total blanket up there that covers all heated and cooled spaces. Each area that doesn't have insulation is like an hole in a boat.

After 12 inches, the walls, windows, doors and vents start to leak and lose more energy then the ceiling. Most double pained windows are just R3. They are the weak link in every home. You can make the ceiling insulation 2 feet thick and build with 2x6 studs on your exterior walls with solid insulation all around, but your windows will still be R3.

The next concern is the weight of the insulation. Here, ceilings are done with 5/8's sheetrock for rafters on 24 inch centers, and half inch sheetrock on 16 inch centers. Sometimes you'll come across a home where they used half inch sheetrock on 24 inch centers to save a few bucks. There is a limit to how much weight you can put on that sheetrock. I've seen the ceiling sheetrock bending and the nail heads popping out on ceilings with very little insulation. I won't add more to it in those cases and explain to the homeowner the problem. I've never heard from those people again and don't know what they did. I just wasn't going to add insulation to a ceiling where I knew the sheetrock couldn't support the load.

Eddie
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #31  
Be careful about adding load to the bottom chords of trusses.

Truss manufacturers go to great length to make the trusses as cheap as humanly possible.

There is not typically available structural margin - the bottom chords are normally only designed for axial loads (usually tension). Adding load to the bottom chord introduces a new bending component which usually requires larger structural members.

If you have the shop drawings which the trusses were manufactured from, the stress interaction ratios can be reviewed to see what structural margins you have available.

Good Luck.

Yooper Dave
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #32  
Thanks for asking this as it might have been misleading. Here, code is R30 for a ceiling in a residential home. R30 is reached at ten inches. R3 per inch is about how it's figured. Going two extra inches exceeds code and allows for some settling over time.

Adding more then 12 inches has a few drawbacks with minimal reward. Every inch costs money. There is a point where you don't get anything back with more. Kind of like how heavy of a jacket you need to stay warm. There is a point were you don't need to put on any more layers. You can gain a higher R factor with thicker insulation, but you start getting into that area of it not making a difference, or it's not something that you can tell in energy savings.



Eddie
Eddie, thanks for your explanation.
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #33  
Here's some pics of bubble wrap installed on my 30X60 shop/garage. Shiny side is out with white side in. Obviously, easy to install when building new, but can be done on existing pole barns....just more time needed to install.
I had it installed on the walls and roof. The walls are 12' high and a vented ridge cap runs the entire lengh of the building. The guys used a nailer firing button staples to attach the wrap to the purlins.
Some benefits:
1) Cost was reasonable for that size of building.
2) The reflective white side made for good lighting.
3) No invasive drafts.
4) And the best part....Temperature control works great.
Inside temps are about 10-15 degrees warmer than outside
at any given time before heat. I use a portable kerosene
heater rated at 125,000 btu to get to comfortable in the
shop, usually about 55-60 degrees. Takes about 20 min.


Last week the temps in Missouri dropped to about 1 degree. The thermometer showed 19 degrees in the building. Fired up the heater and was comfortable in about 20 minutes. So far, I've been impressed! We'll see what happens in warm weather.
 

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   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop
  • Thread Starter
#34  
YooperDave:
Thanks for the comment; I really hadn't thought about the bottom chord of the truss being mainly for tension and not to support a vertical load. Unfortunately I don't have any engineering drawings for the trusses.

Fortunately I will not be nailing a ceiling to the trusses. I purchased enough 1-1/2" x 4' x 21' Dow blue-board foam insulation to do the entire shop. It was used but at $0.25/sq. ft. it was quite a bit cheaper than new. I plan to follow Eddies advice and nail it to the roof purlins.

To help brighten up the shop a bit I plan to cover up the dull blue color in the roof insulation with some kind of white paint that will stick to the insulation.

When decent weather and the weekend coincide I'll get started and post some pics.

Mike Costello:
That's a nice looking building you have there. (so clean!) If I build another one it will be insulated something like that. And yes, it was cold in MO last week, 4 in West Plains. One thing abut Missouri weather; if you don't like the weather, just wait a few days and it'll be totally different.

Ralph
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #35  
Don't let the cleanliness fool you...that pic was taken just after I sealed the concrete and the building was still empty! Now, its starting to look like a garage/workshop.
And...Missouri weather, you're right, it can change fast. I've seen the temps drop as much as 30 degrees in an afternoon! Mike.002.jpg
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #36  
Ralph,

I did the exact thing you are doing, but about 18 years ago. The biggest problem was that the spacing between the posts was only "aproximately" 8'. The widest was close to 9' and not a one were square. For an amateur carpenter, that tossed in a large monkey wrench. I did NOT do a very great job of it either!

jb
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop
  • Thread Starter
#37  
Well, 8 months after the last post in this thread I finally got the insulation installed. On the walls I put the insulation against the purlins and placed OSB over that. Nailed the insulation against the purlins in the attic. Would like to paint over the blue insulation if I can find a paint that will stick. Re-wired and placed an outlet 4.5 feet high every 8 feet on the perimeter. (can't have enough outlets). Even had enough to insert in the metal overhead door. Installed a window in the front also. Now comes lighting, cabinets, workbench, etc.
 

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   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #38  
Thanks for the update, you are way ahead of me. I'm still in the wanting to do it stage!!!

How would you rate the difference in there compared to before you insulated it?

What thickness of foam did you use?

Eddie
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop
  • Thread Starter
#39  
Eddie:
there is a noticeable difference in the summer temperature inside.
Even with everything closed up it is much cooler. I also resealed and painted the tin roof with the silver paint. That probably helps too. The insulation is 1.5" thick.
 
   / Insulate/Upgrade Existing Pole Barn/Shop #40  
Great job. I think about that deal you fell into every now and again. (Usually when I go in the pole barn and the walls are too hot to touch.:p)
 

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