Interesting dealer comment

monkeybreath · Jun 21, 2003

I just finished re-reading the entire JD4310 vs Kubota 3130 post, and because of some of the comments there, it caused me to think of what a JD dealer mentioned to me yesterday. After he told me what the hp was for various units, I asked if those were PTO hp numbers. He said no, then gave me the pto hp numbers, and then went on to say that the reason he initially gave me the gross hp numbers was not to avoid mentioning the pto hp, but that while they used to always state the pto hp, because Kutota began marketing their tractors by listing gross hp, they now had to do that as well to avoid adverse comparisons. He then mentioned that Kubota was the only tractor company which did not submit their tractors to the Nebraska tractor tests for ratings and confirmation of the the hp and so on. He did not do this in a way to put down the Kubota tractors, which he said were good tractors. I do not mention this to put down Kubota, and in fact I may end up owning one soon if I can get the right price, but just thought it was interesting enough to pass on. I have no idea what it all means in the real world.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 21, 2003

That is some interesting information. I did a search and found the Nebraska Testing web site. The testing is based on a Nebraska law. The following is from the web site.

 Provisions for testing tractors are made in the Nebraska Tractor Test law, first passed in 1919 and most recently changed in 1971. This law requires that a stock tractor of each agricultural model (new or used) of 20 or more horsepower offered for sale in Nebraska be tested. In addition, a permit for sale shall be obtained and a full supply of replacement parts be maintained within the state.


At the site there are listings for all tractors that have been tested. Kubota was involved in testing in the 80's. Interesting to note that none of the JD 4xxx series show up on any of the lists. The 5xxx series does. So the salesman is correct in that JD submits tractors for testing and Kubota does not but it appears that JD did not submit the 4xxx series so it is a moot point for the size tractors you are looking at.

This may be because the 4xxx series are not deemed agricultural models.

This is the web site:

Nebraska Tractor Testing

Jeff

Anonymous Poster · Jun 21, 2003

That is interesting. I just went to the Nebraska test lab site and it doesn't list Kubota does that mean that Kubota can't sell tractors in Nebraska? Maybe some Nebraskan can enlighten us on that.

I also heard or read somewhere that the TTL (tractor test lab) doesn't test tractors less than 42 hp. I didn't see it listed anywhere on their site so I don't know if that's true, but I did notice that none of the tests listed on the site were less than that.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 21, 2003

This is a better link to the home page rather than the purpose page. It contains links to the test reports. Recent ones are available on line. Others are listed by their report number and must be ordered.

Nebraska Tractor Test Laboratory

Jeff

MossRoad · Jun 21, 2003

agricultural model 

That's probably the key right there. Are the Kubotas "agricultural models"?

Splinterguy · Jun 22, 2003

I too received simular information from a JD dealer when I first started looking for a tractor. His comments were not directed toward any manufacturer, but were geared toward educating me. He was aware that I was just starting my search and knew little of tractors in general. He was educating me so that I would be able to make apples to apples comparissons. A good dealer that I have had pleasure doing business with.

jlemon · Jun 22, 2003

This might explain why, in the Minnesota DOT tractor contracts, the Kubota 5030 page has stamp on the top saying "Not for Sale in Nebraska".

monkeybreath · Jun 22, 2003

Now, that IS interesting. But why would Kubota want to exclude themselves from the Nebraska market (which is the result of their not submitting tractors for testing there) which I would think would be a decent market ? Also, when I went to the Nebr. test site, it mentioned it was the official testing lab for all tractors in US . . .or something like that.

Bird · Jun 22, 2003

( why would Kubota want to exclude themselves from the Nebraska market )

I don't know why, but I can think of a few reasons. For one thing, until recent years, they didn't make any of the larger "agricultural" tractors. For another, they may have thought a cost analysis didn't show it to be worth getting involved with another governmental agency, and I sure wouldn't blame them for that.

For an unrelated example: Honda, for many years, made a motorcycle that was much better for police use than Harley Davidson and/or Kawasaki, police departments tried to get Honda to produce and sell a "Police motorcycle", but they refused to market a "Police Motorcycle" and get involved in the headaches that go with that. A lot of officers in departments in which the individual officer owned his own bike used them, but in those departments in which the governmental agency owned and maintained the bikes, they didn't. The Goldwing would run over 120 mph, but Honda's manuals said to not exceed posted speed limits and in no case operate in excess of 85 mph. I know Kawasaki's claims that they could be used at high speeds resulted in lots of lawsuits for them to defend, and probably cost them more than the profit they made selling the bikes to police departments. At one time, BMW claimed to have 85% of the world police motorcycle business, said they were "going to take over the police motorcycle business in the United States". They loaned bikes to police departments (including mine) to try out and in less than 2 years, they pulled out of the market when they realized they didn't want that business. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Whether something similar applies to Kubota and Nebraska or not, I have no idea, but I can't say I'm surprised.

MossRoad · Jun 22, 2003

does that mean that Kubota can't sell tractors in Nebraska? 

Apparently there is a Kubota dealer in Omaha.

monkeybreath · Jun 22, 2003

Maybe they only sell the smaller (under 42 hp ) tractors which apparently are not subject to the testing requirement.

TresCrows · Jun 22, 2003

I have never done much research on this but I believe that CUTs are not included in the test regardless of who makes them. Since Kubota only imports smaller tractors--relatively speaking--and more frequently their tractors are used in construction etc--they may have felt there was no need to submit to another "American" beuracracy.
Toyota recently certified an engine based loosely off the aluminum Lexus V8 that was to be used for a cheap throwaway PT6 replacement. The PT6 is a turbine making upwards of 1,000 horses. The Toyota engine went threw all the ususal FAA morass of regulations and testing. It was I assume Toyotas first dealing with the moribund beuracracy. They became quite frustrated. Well, Toyota stuck it out and was given the certification and then they withdrew it from the market. They stuck it out due to company honor.
I would not base my tractor purchase for a CUT on the Nebraska draw tests. The big three all make fine tractors, JD and NH spec a nice unit, the JD uses a Yanamar engine from Japan, Kubota builds their tractor with a Kubota engine. Their engines are also widely used in other industrial applications by second party manufacturers.
In fact, I guess I should do my own research but I did not notice that the Nebraska test used any Hydro tractors. Kinda odd around here, the farmers all have big green tractors and combines or the big red ones from MF but quite a few seem to have little orange Kubotas running about also.
I notice you was a lawyer, maybe you should get a JD, I don't want airbags on my 'bota. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. Just kidding with ya, good luck whatever you get. J

Anonymous Poster · Jun 22, 2003

I think it comes down to the definition of Agricultural Model . Apparently the CUTs are not included in this catagory. It was mentioned in the thread that it applied to 42 HP and higher but the information on the Nebraska Testing site says it applies to 20 HP and higher.

In reviewing the lists of available test reports from previous years it appears that CUTs of all brands (including Kubota) were tested in the mid 80's but nothing after that. Maybe the law was modified to specifically exclude or clarify the requirements as they apply to CUTs.

One lesson from this is, as always, you must take whatever a salesman says with a grain of salt. I'm sure the salesman in this case was trying to be helpful and informative but the bottom line is JD does not submit their CUTS for the Nebraska testing either so they are no better off than Kubota in this regard.

Jeff

JohnMiller3 · Jun 22, 2003

Interesting dealer comment-Nebraska Tractor Tests

All current Kubota “M” series have been tested and are approved for sale in Nebraska via the OECD testing facilities in Japan…. And many of the other compact tractor companies units being sold in the U.S. have also been tested and approved throughout the world OECD facilities… (other countries laws require “approval” of compact tractor testing, not the U.S.)

To be “sold” in the State of Nebraska, all “agricultural tractors of forty or more horsepower”, must submit a testing application to the Nebraska Tractor Labs with the proper fees and have the test conducted and completed and the tractor approved… or overseas manufacturers can submit the same to their jurisdiction through the OECD.

In the beginning, these “tractor tests” gave great credence and validity to a tractor manufacturers “salability” to have their unit tested and approved by the Nebraska Tractor Test Lab (prior to OECD). In fact, it was the only believable “yardstick” available to the farmer… and became a sort of “defacto standard” used throughout the world.

But over the years, the Lab fees have increased tremendously (inflation?)… Today an average tractor tested @ Nebraska Labs could well exceed $25-30K each full test… Also, the past ten to fifteen years or so… government deregulation has threatened these programs to almost become non-existent. Currently, the Nebraska Tractor Lab is facing this dilemma… and could be “out of business” as we know it, in the next few years…

As a side note… believe it or not… most all of the major Korean tractor mfrs (Daedong, Kukje, TYM, etc.) have submitted and been approved by the OECD, along with a few Chinese mfrs… /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

_RaT_ · Jun 22, 2003

Re: Interesting dealer comment-Nebraska Tractor Tests

I figured it was "Miller Time". John , John, John you are a plethora, a cornicopia, a guy with a lot of info. Thanks, Rat...

Woodbeef · Jun 22, 2003

Re: Interesting dealer comment-Nebraska Tractor Tests

But JM3,you forgot to fill in the blanks about why the NTTL came about in the 1st place...............

Woodbeef · Jun 22, 2003

Ahh Bird.....the Kubota M4500 was an Ag-Utility tractor,and it dates back to 1978.

JohnMiller3 · Jun 22, 2003

Re: Interesting dealer comment-Nebraska Tractor Tests

… why the NTTL came about in the 1st place…

Hi Woodbeef,

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
I’d figure, I’d leave the manufacturers “lying, cheating, misleading farmers and buyers” about their tractors actual/real performance and spec’s to another thread… /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

… as I also left out the OECD headquarters is based in France, along with the “metric” standards of the world, as the ISO 9000’s approvals… and all the “rumored” back room deals/payoffs and underhandedness… that has occurred over the years… for another forum & lifetime to discuss… /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Woodbeef · Jun 22, 2003

Re: Interesting dealer comment-Nebraska Tractor Tests

Oh ya,and the country of origin testing too. What about the DLG and Silsoe vs. Official OECD test results also?