Intermittent Starter

Anonymous Poster · Jun 12, 2003

Hi, I am new to the group. I have a YM 186D. Sometimes, when turning the key to "start", I get the "click" sound from the solenoid. Battery and wires are all fine. After turning the key one or two more times, the starter fires right up. Sometimes, it will even start up on the first try. After reading several posts, I am focusing on the internal contacts of the solenoid. I want to inspect them and sand and clean the contact buss. The solenoid is located on top of the starter. I began by unscrewing the two screws at the opposite end of the solenoid terminals. (I did not remove the starter). Upon pulling the solenoid away from the bracket, I noticed a sort-of looped metal spring that was against a piece of steel that extended into the starter/flywheel. I pulled the spring away. First of all, how do I reassemble this correctly with the notch in the steel "piston", spring, and piece of steel that extends into the flywheel? Second, how do I access those contacts for cleaning? Thank you very much.

Marc markeyismarc@aol.com

Anonymous Poster · Jun 12, 2003

Sounds like you are on the right track with the starter and the solenoid. Solenoids often get dirty/fail. If the starter makes noise when you turn the key, but fails to turn, it's a problem with the starter, if the solenoid clicks, but the starter does nothing, it is the solenoid. I had a car once that did the same thing. I had to pop the hood, and whack the solenoid to get it to start.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 13, 2003

As far as getting the parts all back together properly, the best i can suggest is to carefully look at how they come apart. Getting to the contacts may not be possible. I have not taken the Yanmar starter apart but I have gutted many similar kinds. Most of the time the contacts are sealed in a hard plastic housing and your only hope is to try and spray some carb cleaner in there and blow with compressed air. Sometimes that will help. Good luck

normde2001 · Jun 13, 2003

Yhe "click" you hear is probably the solenoid pulling, starter just not turning. Most likely, points ok. Check/clean solenoid and starter brushes and make sure you have plenty of battery power, at least 12.6v. Sorry, can't help with reassembly without seeing it.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 13, 2003

I've taken to taking some digital pictures as I disassemble things. I also make marks on pieces that rotate so you get the alignment right. Digital pics are free once you have the camera. I always think reassembly will be obvious, but once I get there, it is less clear and the pictures are a big help.

Remember the mechanics shop poster

Labor: $30/hr
If you help $40/hr
If you worked on it first $60/hr

Doc

jamtrac2002 · Jun 13, 2003

The flat on the spring simply goes against the lower part of the steel bar, then the two ends on the spring go into their respective holes in the solenoid.
You cannot get to the contacts inside.
I think your problem is that you need a Starter Relay. This was not standard equipment on the 186, but I have them available, it is cheaper than a solenoid and the best place to start.
Of course the brushes in the starter could be worn down and need replacing. I can provide you with whatever parts you need. thanks, Gary J.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 14, 2003

Thank you for all of your suggestions. Today, I reassembled the solenoid. Should there be a bearing/ball at the spring-end that goes against the end-housing cover and spring? In order to test the solenoid contacts, I disconnected the small solenoid wire. I jumped from the + battery terminal to the small solenoid terminal. This energized the solenoid and closed (hopefully) the contacts. With the solenoid energized, I proceeded to take a continuity reading across the two large terminals on the solinoid. (I did not disconnect the leads attached to those terminals. I did not think that would matter). The reading should total continuity! That would mean that the contacts are fine. I guess that my initial diagnosis (bad contacts) went out the window. With no power to the solenoid, that same test showed no continuity (as expected). I then proceeded to reconnect the solenoid wire and jump (with screwdriver)across the two large terminals on the solenoid in order to test the starter. Each and every time, the starter fired up. However, I do not understand why the starter engaged the flywheel and cranked the engine each time. The ignition key was off, thus not engaging the solenoid. In this test, shouldn't the starter have spun only itself and not the engine too? During this test, while cranking, sometimes it sounded normal, and at other times it sounded like a grinding sound. What's with that?

Marc

Anonymous Poster · Jun 22, 2003

I took the starter and solenoid to the shop. They cleaned and oiled the starter. Brushes were very good. Solenoid tested fine too. They had to correctly position the metal arm that attaches to the solenoid plunger. When I reassembled the solenoid, the metal arm end that goes down on the starter gear shaft was not seated properly on the coller. He told me that in order to seat this properly, that starter had to be disassembled so that he could see the proper position on the coller in which to locate the metal arm. I reinstalled everything and checked battery voltage. It was fine at 12.65V. While testing, the starter engaged every time. I counted at least 20 consecutive times of starter engagement. I thought everything was fine. Today, it went intermittent again. When I turn the key and the starter does NOT engage, I can ALWAYS hear the loud "click" of the solenoid. Therefore, the solenoid magnet is always functioning properly. Maybe the contacts are not properly closing all of the time due to pitting, etc. Unfortunately, I don't think that the contacts are accessible for inspection/cleaning. If I turn the key once or twice more, the starter will fire right up. This little problem is frustrating. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Any more suggestions?

Marc

normde2001 · Jun 22, 2003

Did you or the shop actually remove the brushes and clean them and check spring tension? It still sound as if you have a sticking brush not making contact at times.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 22, 2003

<font color="blue">Maybe the contacts are not properly closing all of the time due to pitting, etc.</font>

Sounds like that's your problem exactly.

<font color="blue">I don't think that the contacts are accessible for inspection/cleaning.</font>

I'm not sure what it looks like but most of these can be disassembled. There is usually screws holding the cover on though sometimes they can be rivets or brads. If you can get it apart I'm betting you'll find pitting as you suspect. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Maybe you could take a photo of it and post it so we could see how it's assembled.

YanmarFever · Jun 22, 2003

Marc /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Gosh! it sounds like you have run the works with the starter.
Have you tried a different ignition switch?
Maybe, just maybe its not making the right contact, dirt, grease, worn out ?
Next time it does it remove the key switch, and bypass it on the back of it with a screw driver touching the wires together.
I have done this and discovered that my switch was bad
and I had the same intermittent starting problem that you seem to be having.
I hope its an easy fix for you
Tractor Ernie.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 23, 2003

Another thing that can cause this is worn bushings at the ends of the armature shaft. they are in the ends of the starter case. That in turn allows the armature to ground out against the case. When I was young I saw this a lot and a a pair of 50 cent bushings would fix the starter. I dont know if they even sell them anymore. If they do Ill bet that they cost a lot more than 50 cents.
Ralph

normde2001 · Jun 23, 2003

Ernie, if the solenoid is pulling doesn't the problem have to be in the starter?

YanmarFever · Jun 23, 2003

Ernie, if the solenoid is pulling doesn't the problem have to be in the starter?

I thought he said sometimes he just gets a click when he turns the key over sometimes

YanmarFever · Jun 23, 2003

I Went back & read your posts on the problem
I noticed that the starter worked every time on the test table
and then when you installed it, whamo! no workie.
I will put my $$ on the key switch or the wiring leading to it.

Try the test out on my earlier post, about removing the key switch and touching the wires together and see what happens.
Its a cheap test & cost nothing.

Be sure you are sitting on the seat when you try this first
because it could start & take off!!

Tractor Ernie.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 23, 2003

Ernie, I do not think that the ignition switch is bad. Remember, when the starter does NOT engage, I still hear the "click" (pull) of the solenoid. This means that the ignition switch IS sending voltage to the solenoid when I turn the key. On the other hand, if the ignition switch is bad, then, NO voltage would be sent to the solenoid, and the solenoid would NOT "pull".

In another forum, someone mentioned that I bypass both safety switches (at clutch and PTO lever). That is easy to do. However, when safety circuit is "open" I know that solenoid will not "click" (pull). That is how it is designed to function. My problem is that the solenoid DOES pull at ALL times when safety circuit is closed by depressing the clutch pedal and placing PTO lever in neutral, but the starter does NOT engage at ALL times. He described the exact same problem as mine. He changed starters and solenoids, only to find out that by plugging the safety circuit wires together, solved his intermittent starter engagement problem. Sounds odd! Once he isolated the bad switch, he cleaned the contacts. Any thoughts on this too? Thank you.

Marc

normde2001 · Jun 23, 2003

Marc, how much voltage is your battery showing now that the starter is intermittant again? Going back to another post, you said it worked 20 times in a row when the battery read 12.65 v, and later became intermittant. I would try it with a battery charger hooked up, or at least make sure you are maintaining at least 12.6v.

YanmarFever · Jun 23, 2003

Machi
Did I ever tell you about the extra 1510-D starter I have on a shelf? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Oh I forgot to mention the new yanmar key switches also!
I must have at least 8-10 of them.

if push comes to shove with the 186 !!
It might be easier than a hammer on the hood
take care
Ernie

Anonymous Poster · Jun 23, 2003

Norm, I had it running this evening. I would estimate about a 70% start rate. The battery still reads 12.65 - 12.72 volts at the solenoid end. That is adequate voltage. I am still leaning towards pitted solenoid contacts as the culprit. Unfortunately, it appears to be a "closed" system at the contact-end. It looks like the case is crimped on. Maybe I should just get a cheapie starter relay and forget about the contacts in the solenoid. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif