Introduction and pole barn planning help

[Millercameron97]

It must be the conditions of the environment in certain regions. NOBODY in south east Texas has a basement. But lots of folks do in northern Alabama where I grew up. I've been told the water table is to shallow around here so I guess its a moisture/flooding issue? I'm not positive, but I can tell you this, if there were a cheaper way for builders to put up a house around here, they would be doing it!

 

[BigGG]

It could be. Or it could even be a basement with or without the concrete floor. Verticals, subwall foundations and piers reduce cost on large houses. I've got a thick book on types of foundations around here somewhere. If I find it I'll post the title.

Access to utilities is far better by standing up to be working beneath a floor than trying to guess what is inside a slab. Modifications are much easier. Also, the area beneath the main floor can be conditioned for heat and cool much more easily if there is standing access.

I can make lots of arguments for other types than slab...but so can anyone. So what is the argument in favor of a slab?
rScotty

In the south, frost penetration is almost nil. The drivers for slab are cost, energy and time. On a flat site an integral footing and slab can be poured at one time. Otherwise, a footing and block stem wall is built, backfilled and slab poured. Heat loss/gain is lessened without using insulation, since the ground temperature is moderate. Many people like the solid feel and no-squeak aspect. Basements are less popular than in the past, partly because of high water table in some areas.
The downside is lack of access for utility installation and maintenance. The plumbing rough-in has to be correct.

 

[rScotty]

It must be the conditions of the environment in certain regions. NOBODY in south east Texas has a basement. But lots of folks do in northern Alabama where I grew up. I've been told the water table is to shallow around here so I guess its a moisture/flooding issue? I'm not positive, but I can tell you this, if there were a cheaper way for builders to put up a house around here, they would be doing it!

A lot of times the building method said to be best for the area is just something that is regionally popular.\ If there are swimming pools, there can be basements. But maybe nobody makes one. You want formed and poured concrete with rebar & footers; not block.

As was said, the better home builders don't advertise. You find them word of mouth by talking to homeowners in the area. The better builders give estimates; not bids. Bids are for bankers and loans. So if you can financially, stay away from bids. They are often biased toward cost rather than the quality it sounds you prefer.

rScotty

 

[Tinhack]

Now I'm curious.... what would make you favor building a house on a slab as opposed to a perimeter wall foundation?
I've never understood the popularity of slabs.

In this part of the world, basements are a rarity. I wish I had one for the utility space. I've only seen one this far south and it was over 100 years old up in the big city. I don't think builders down here know how to do it. Or, perhaps, the ground/soil conditions don't like it. It's not uncommon to see 2-3" cracks in the ground during a dry summer. Everything in my area floats on clay and shale. After 1-2' of topsoil there's white clay down another 6' to shale. That's what I found putting in my septic tank. I didn't put what I dug out back around it. So far, so good.

 

[rScotty]

In this part of the world, basements are a rarity. I wish I had one for the utility space. I've only seen one this far south and it was over 100 years old up in the big city. I don't think builders down here know how to do it. Or, perhaps, the ground/soil conditions don't like it. It's not uncommon to see 2-3" cracks in the ground during a dry summer. Everything in my area floats on clay and shale. After 1-2' of topsoil there's white clay down another 6' to shale. That's what I found putting in my septic tank. I didn't put what I dug out back around it. So far, so good.

If you want a basement, the technology is common in many places. Clay and shale are just normal conditions for the civil engineer/architect.This is old and proven technology. The soil type is just one more factor to deal with. I'm betting they know how to do it.

It does sounds like it needs a civil engineer - or architect - and hopefully you can find one with experience who has moved down there from an area of the country where they do lots of basements. Basements are common in Kansas and soil is similar for instance. If you decide to do it, let him/her find a foundation contractor who is willing to follow an engineered plan. That way you get an automatic price estimate as well.... and enough knowledge to decide if it really is worthwhile over a slab.

Nothing wrong with a slab, but it kind of restricts in the future. The main advantage to the slab does seem to be cost. That's important. I watched my own house project double in cost while it was going up.. Good slabs also require a LOT of removing dirt and treating it and putting it back down compacted - just as good basements do.

A basement can almost double the floor space for far less than the upstairs cost/sq. ft. And it makes the house super strong against wind and undercutting from flooding. Plus a basement has all sorts of advantages if you ever decide to do some form of floor heat or cooling or a heat pump.

Not saying you should go that way, but you wanted to discuss options and that's one to start with. ...Although I guess we really ought to be talking with your wife since she doing the house and you the barn?
rScotty

 

[ericm979]

The shoptalk forum can be a source of useful info. I will check it out, thanks!

Oops my mistake, that should be garagejournal.

 

[dcarman]

Gents,

I joined up the other day after seeing Cat Fever's barn thread and now I'm going through an over planning existential crisis. That's probably not a bad thing, but I'm hoping I can get some insight and direction from the guys more experienced than me. I've built a little 8x12 shed in my residential backyard, remodeled a few houses (my own), giant porch addition, and kind of an all around jack of all trades. I've worked offshore for 16 years now and have a bit of a knack for rigging, lifting, fastening etc. But, I've never taken on a project of this size. My wife and I sold our Neighborhood home last year and bought a 14 acre plot of rolling hill and 50/50 wooded, pasture property. Chasing a lifestyle neither one of us have really ever lived, but excited about nonetheless. I quickly bought a New Holland powerstar 75 without a place to put it, and a 32 ft trailer. My wife didn't really like that much but, it's a necessity so. She's focusing on our house, I'm focusing on my barn. I believe I have the size narrowed down to either a 40x80 or 100 if I can swing that. I have gone back and forth between red iron and post frame and eventually landed on post frame for one, because the cost of steel is super high and the labor to erect them, also very high. I'm not a steel guy per say, but I can deal with wood, so I figure I'm saving quite a bit by handling what labor I can. I am struggling a bit though with what exactly is the best way to go about it.

For instance do you uses 6x6's? 6x6's seem kinda small... any reason why you don't use something bigger (other than cost) 10x10? 12x12?

is it better do do the slab first and use the wet set brackets to keep the post out of the ground? If so, what about wind shear loads?

How far do you bury them if you bury them?

Do you wrap the beam or tar it before you concrete it in? Do you leave it open and put gravel in the bottom of the pier?

Do you worry about uplift? should you run some rebar through the post before concrete to help with that?

Should you do the bell piers or just a straight hole?

Do you use perimeter beams and interior beams in the concrete and do a monolithic pour?

What thickness concrete for tractor, truck, trailer, maybe some heavy equipment later. Rebar size and spacing?

This is what I have come up with so far. I'm in the southeast Texas area, and the soil samples we've gotten back for the house site indicate use of helical piers. A foot of top soil, about 8 ft of clay, 3 ft of loamy stuff, and then around 12-15 ft it gets to be a watery, sandy, soupy mixture. I don't think I'll go so far as to use those piers for the barn build, but it does have me a bit nervous, maybe for no good reason. I admittedly don't know anything about that part of it. I have about 3ft of fall from one corner of the building to the opposite, diagonally, and I've already sourced out a fellow that will over dig the site and come in with 6" lifts of compacted select fill until we get above grade. I think I want to do a more robust post, a 10x10 is where I am right now, with about 4 ft buried, 14 ft eave height. I believe I've decided on some steel trusses that bolt together at the peak. They have the purlin saddles welded in for a quick and easy layout, which I think will be a benefit from a DIY stand point. They also run on 10 ft centers so it comes out cheaper than wood trusses. One of the things I'm undecided on is the sheathing vs wall girts. It appears to me that sheathing would help more with potential racking with stronger winds. I realize this is approaching a stick framed building but I truly do want strength and longevity in this building. Also, considering I want to eventually insulate this whole building, a sheet good, especially a radiant barrier, would be all the more better in my eyes. It gets hotter the hinges of hells gate down here and I don't like to sweat on purpose. I think it would be awesome to have a cabinet building project, vehicle restoration etc, whatever it may be, with something to knock down the temps to even 80 degrees or so. Zip system sheathing looks awesome and acts as a vapor barrier too but that gets pretty costly. Maybe its all not worth it and I just stick to the simple 2x6 wall girts... talk me in or out of it! Do's and dont's!

I'm sure I've left out plenty of talking points so feel free to add them. Please give me your critiques if you have the time!

Get your building size down pat and send the outline size to a firm in your area that builds trusses and posts. They engineer it and give you a quote of the cost of the poles and trusses free of charge. Most buildings like this these days are made with laminated posts, 6X6 or 8X8. I do estimates for these type buildings all the time and always leave that engineering to the people who are pros at it.
One decision you will have is do you want to put the poles on concrete or bury them in the ground. They can quote it either way. There are metal brackets made to be put in the concrete to mount the poles to. If you don't know or trust the soil in your area that may be the best route.

 

[tstorzuk]

Since you're trying to overthink things, here's something else for the noggin'.

Attic trusses designed for storage. I sure as heck wish I had thought of these on my last build. Having more storage space available for seldom used items would have been really handy.

 

[JBacon52]

,,,,,,,,, I'd still want to do it to code. A lot of what's in the building codes is to save the builder from expensive or dangerous mistakes.

Please remember, that "building to code" is the absolute minimum required, to pass for an inspection!
Think of it as if you're in school, you can pass with a "D" on your report card.
It's never a bad idea to build better than code. I always did when I did construction type work!
SeeYaLaterBye
JB

 

[aircommuter]

Here are some insulated panels (2.5”thick r21 foam) that can help keep you cool or warm. This is an all steel building. Six inch slab over compacted road base and drain rock. 18” thick square perimeter footing with six #4 bars and # 3 bars on 16” center in the slab. Lots of conduits with 4 three phase panels.
Almost forgot 50x128x23h.