Is General motors really in bad financial shape ?
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Marine1
Silver Member
I agree with what a lot of you are saying. The big three here can't build a decent car to save their lives. They refuse to build what their customers truly want in a car. The big three cars that I and my family have owned over the years have all been crap. Almost every member of my LARGE family now own "foreign" cars. You could give me a so called domestic car but I would turn around and sell it for a car that gets more miles on the road than on the lift. Call me bias if you want, but I feel that I deserve the right to speak on my experiences. Many people that I know feel the same way about this and it seems that the auto makers just don't care. They seem very arrogant. I don't think they are, but that's how they appear. I just don't think they are with the current trend of buyer. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Now, their trucks, that's a different story. That's the one area they do listen to the consumers. For the life of me I don't know how they can build such fine trucks and such crappy cars. I am actually hoping to buy a new F350DRW in a year or two.
Will they go the way of the Dinosaur and the Titanic? I doubt it seriously,Why? Because You and I are going to have to bail them out like we did the still failing Amtrak and the still failing airlines. Do you see a pattern? As I see it, if they can't keep themselves afloat let them sink just like every other small business person out there. I for one am tired of the corporate welfare system. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
No, I did not have a failed business. Yes, I worked for a company that went under and Yes, I have been laid off. Just thought I would answer those questions before I got asked. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Now, their trucks, that's a different story. That's the one area they do listen to the consumers. For the life of me I don't know how they can build such fine trucks and such crappy cars. I am actually hoping to buy a new F350DRW in a year or two.
Will they go the way of the Dinosaur and the Titanic? I doubt it seriously,Why? Because You and I are going to have to bail them out like we did the still failing Amtrak and the still failing airlines. Do you see a pattern? As I see it, if they can't keep themselves afloat let them sink just like every other small business person out there. I for one am tired of the corporate welfare system. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
No, I did not have a failed business. Yes, I worked for a company that went under and Yes, I have been laid off. Just thought I would answer those questions before I got asked. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
California
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I suspect GM's loud wails of woe and ruin are a lead-in to handing their pension obligations over to the American taxpayers like United Airlines just did.
Bird
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</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The big three cars that I and my family have owned over the years have all been crap.)</font>
Everyone has his/her personal preferences, but this thread just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Some criticize General Motors, some criticize Ford, some criticize all "American" brands, some criticize Toyota. Some criticize only specific models; others criticize the entire line. And much of the criticism is not backed up by specific information. In my opinion, you can get good or bad in nearly any make, but most of the vehicles in any make are good. I've owned "domestic" brands (some of which came from Mexico or Canada) as well as "foreign" brands (I think all my "foreign" brands were actually imported rather than being made in this country). I've owned Chevrolets (both cars and pickups), Oldsmobiles, Pontiac, Cadillac, Studebaker, Austin Healey, Plymouths, Isuzus (both car and pickup), Opel, Suzuki, Mercury, Chryslers, and Fords (cars, pickups, and mini-van). I've had full size and compacts, in both cars and pickups. I've bought both new and used. And of course I've driven many, many vehicles besides the ones I owned. Some were more expensive to operate than others, but in 49 years, I've gotten only one "lemon". It happened to be a new 1966 Ford sedan, and unfortunately, was before anyone heard of lemon laws. Did that one Ford affect my attitude towards Ford? You bet it did. I wouldn't buy a Ford for about 25 years, but I know they made a lot of good cars during that time and I'm driving Fords now. Personally, I think it's much like buying a tractor. If you get the one you like, it'll be fine, but if you don't really like it when you buy it, you probably never will like it, and it just might not be the manufacturer's fault that you think it's "crap".
Everyone has his/her personal preferences, but this thread just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Some criticize General Motors, some criticize Ford, some criticize all "American" brands, some criticize Toyota. Some criticize only specific models; others criticize the entire line. And much of the criticism is not backed up by specific information. In my opinion, you can get good or bad in nearly any make, but most of the vehicles in any make are good. I've owned "domestic" brands (some of which came from Mexico or Canada) as well as "foreign" brands (I think all my "foreign" brands were actually imported rather than being made in this country). I've owned Chevrolets (both cars and pickups), Oldsmobiles, Pontiac, Cadillac, Studebaker, Austin Healey, Plymouths, Isuzus (both car and pickup), Opel, Suzuki, Mercury, Chryslers, and Fords (cars, pickups, and mini-van). I've had full size and compacts, in both cars and pickups. I've bought both new and used. And of course I've driven many, many vehicles besides the ones I owned. Some were more expensive to operate than others, but in 49 years, I've gotten only one "lemon". It happened to be a new 1966 Ford sedan, and unfortunately, was before anyone heard of lemon laws. Did that one Ford affect my attitude towards Ford? You bet it did. I wouldn't buy a Ford for about 25 years, but I know they made a lot of good cars during that time and I'm driving Fords now. Personally, I think it's much like buying a tractor. If you get the one you like, it'll be fine, but if you don't really like it when you buy it, you probably never will like it, and it just might not be the manufacturer's fault that you think it's "crap".
Marine1
Silver Member
I agree you can get a lemon with anything. I bought a pack of pens and half of them didn't work. I still use pens though. I just don't use those pens. I and my family have run the gamut in the so called Domestic cars. BTW, I say "so called" because all cars are piece meal from all over the place. We were the typical BUY AMERICAN family. Unfortunately there isn't much of anything all american anymore. The luck (and it was mostly bad) we had with so called "Domestic" cars has forced us to go the "foreign" market. I must tell you now that our car problems are virtually a thing of the past. I wish that wasn't the case but that's how it is.
We had mostly Chevrolets and Fords but we used Dodge and GM as well. We had two good "domestic" cars. Well, actually one, We had an old Chevy Station Wagon that we just loved until it died and then we had a Chevy Van that my dad put 300,000+ miles on. The van had a fuel suction problem that was solved about 6 months after he got it and a rebuilt engine after about 100,000 miles. 200,000 miles on a rebuilt engine. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I wish I could remember his mechanics name, if he's still alive and working.
At any rate virtually all the so called "domestic" cars we owned were indeed crap. From the wheel falling off of my Mother's Camaro to the 460 Engine that was just one repair after another in my Mercury Broughm. Those so called "domestic" cars. You can have them!
We had mostly Chevrolets and Fords but we used Dodge and GM as well. We had two good "domestic" cars. Well, actually one, We had an old Chevy Station Wagon that we just loved until it died and then we had a Chevy Van that my dad put 300,000+ miles on. The van had a fuel suction problem that was solved about 6 months after he got it and a rebuilt engine after about 100,000 miles. 200,000 miles on a rebuilt engine. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif I wish I could remember his mechanics name, if he's still alive and working.
At any rate virtually all the so called "domestic" cars we owned were indeed crap. From the wheel falling off of my Mother's Camaro to the 460 Engine that was just one repair after another in my Mercury Broughm. Those so called "domestic" cars. You can have them!
JerryG
Super Member
<font color="blue"> If you get the one you like, it'll be fine, but if you don't really like it when you buy it, you probably never will like it, and it just might not be the manufacturer's fault that you think it's "crap". </font>
Well said Bird. I think that covered a lot of what is going on.
Well said Bird. I think that covered a lot of what is going on.
I went through the American cars, getting pretty good ones (except for the GMs), then I got a couple of problem cars in a row. In the meantime, I tried foreign, starting with Volvo and Saab back in the 60's, when the 122S and the 96 V4 were great cars. I had terrible problems with a VW bus, went back to a Dodge station wagon that was even worse, and finally went to Asian cars. A couple of Toyotas that would still be in the family today except for smashed up, a less-than-stellar Suzuki Swift, a decent Dodge Colt (Mitsubishi), and an outstanding Ford Festiva (Kia). The latter, a '93, is still in use by my lawn service guy, pulling a trailer with his lawn equipment, it has about 250K miles!
Then, American cars started getting better. We have a '95 Dakota, '99 WindStar and '00 Focus ZX3 that have all been just about flawless. I'm working up the motivation to trade the WindStar and the Dakota on an F350.
We don't have much use for "cars" any more, except the Focus coupe, which my wife uses for work -- over 125 miles per day as a home health physical therapist. It's well over 100K and we haven't done any repairs to it other than tires and brakes. My son ran a company-owned Focus to 100K, then got a company Taurus that's pushing 80K; all they get is routine service. I think American cars have come a long way, and American trucks are fantastic. Toyota and Nissan may have a foot into the half-ton market, but they simply have nothing to offer in the 250/2500 or 350/3500 market. They still don't know how to think "Truck".
However, after all those comments, it still boils down to the fact that I have NEVER had a decent GM vehicle, staring with my 1950 Chevvy with fiber timing gears. I've had Cadillacs and Chevvys, Oldsmobiles and Buicks, and a GM truck or two, and I currently have a motor home on a Chevvy P30 chassis -- to my eternal sorrow. I've spent more money of that inferior suspension design than many folks spend on their entire lifetime's maintenance.
If GM is in trouble, I say "good riddance", and I'll never miss them.
Then, American cars started getting better. We have a '95 Dakota, '99 WindStar and '00 Focus ZX3 that have all been just about flawless. I'm working up the motivation to trade the WindStar and the Dakota on an F350.
We don't have much use for "cars" any more, except the Focus coupe, which my wife uses for work -- over 125 miles per day as a home health physical therapist. It's well over 100K and we haven't done any repairs to it other than tires and brakes. My son ran a company-owned Focus to 100K, then got a company Taurus that's pushing 80K; all they get is routine service. I think American cars have come a long way, and American trucks are fantastic. Toyota and Nissan may have a foot into the half-ton market, but they simply have nothing to offer in the 250/2500 or 350/3500 market. They still don't know how to think "Truck".
However, after all those comments, it still boils down to the fact that I have NEVER had a decent GM vehicle, staring with my 1950 Chevvy with fiber timing gears. I've had Cadillacs and Chevvys, Oldsmobiles and Buicks, and a GM truck or two, and I currently have a motor home on a Chevvy P30 chassis -- to my eternal sorrow. I've spent more money of that inferior suspension design than many folks spend on their entire lifetime's maintenance.
If GM is in trouble, I say "good riddance", and I'll never miss them.
I bought three vehicles last year. One built in Germany (Audi), one built in Japan (Infiniti), and one built in the USA (Dodge). The foreign vehicles both cost in the mid-forties, and the American made vehicle was only $25K. Only one of them has had zero problems from day one. Only one of them hasn't been to the dealer for warranty repairs. Can you guess which one? The DODGE!
I don't have any partiality when it comes to brands or origins. I buy what I like. I just think it is kind of sad when people insist that Japanese vehicles are hands down the best. They are missing out on some really good vehicles.
I don't have any partiality when it comes to brands or origins. I buy what I like. I just think it is kind of sad when people insist that Japanese vehicles are hands down the best. They are missing out on some really good vehicles.
v8dave
Platinum Member
In my career I've had to do a lot of travelling. I probably drive about 6 to 8 different rent-a-cars per year now. In the past it was 20 to 30 different cars per year. I get to sample a lot of cars this way. Some I like, some I don't, I rarely look forward to getting a Chevrolet or Pontiac.
For several years through the late 90s and early 00s, I was on the East Coast about twice a month. Originally my company had an agreement with Hertz and I drove a lot of Ford products with an occasional other brand thrown in. I grew to like Ford Taurus and its Mercury equivalent. I still have good experiences with Fords as rent-a-cars.
Once I got a Volvo at Hertz and was impressed with it enough, we went down to buy one. The dealer experience was so bad we walked across the street and bought an Acura. The Acura has been the best car we've ever had.
My company switched to Avis and I started getting GM rent-a-cars. When I sit down in a Chevy or a Pontiac (and previously Oldsmobiles, which have gone the way GM is currently going) they just seem cheap--manual seat adjustments, cheesy looking dash, no or flimsy consoles. Buicks, which I regularly get as a comp ugrade, are as nice as the Fords I previously rented. So, GM knows how to build some nice cars, they just don't do enough of them. But still, I don't like getting Chevrolets or Pontiacs when I show up at Avis.
Since I've retired into consulting, my rent-a-car experiences run a month or so per rental. Avis now upgrades me into various other brand cars, I still like the Buicks I get on occasion. But, I've taken a liking to the smaller cars for manuverability reasons. My favorite at the moment is the Nissan Altima, nice fit and finish and fairly peppy for it's small motor. I even got a small Chevrolet Malibu for a while and it's fit and finish was actually quite nice, but it's motor wasn't up to the Altima's. A colleague on that assignment got a Kia and he was quite impressed. It was nice enough that I'll actually accept one now if one turns up on a rental--previously I'd refuse a Korean car.
Avis was out of cars on a recent trip and I got a Subaru Outback at Hertz. I've always wondered about Outbacks, they are popular where I live (just below the snow belt in the Sierra Nevada Mountains) for the 4 wheel drive. Four wheel drive can pass by chain control when it snows. Anyway, it was a nice car but a little underpowered for my taste. Maybe if it is offered with a manual transmission, it might be accecptable.
Only cars, I don't seem to get when renting are Chrysler products.
When I grew up my family always bought Chevys. Starting in the late 70s we gravitated to Fords, now my family (and adult chldren) buy Honda and Ford products. At home we still have the Acura 3.2 for my wife and my daily driver is a Honda Civic hatchback or a F250 6.0 diesel, quad cab, 4WD. We also have a few really old Fords (30s, 40s) in the garage. Previously, I drove an 80s Toyota 4 banger pick-up for 180,000 miles and it was a good, sturdy, reliable truck.
I regret that GM is having troubles, but they just don't measure up to the quality of the competition. I'd like to think that they can turn this around, but I fear they'll go the way of US steel... to bad too.
For several years through the late 90s and early 00s, I was on the East Coast about twice a month. Originally my company had an agreement with Hertz and I drove a lot of Ford products with an occasional other brand thrown in. I grew to like Ford Taurus and its Mercury equivalent. I still have good experiences with Fords as rent-a-cars.
Once I got a Volvo at Hertz and was impressed with it enough, we went down to buy one. The dealer experience was so bad we walked across the street and bought an Acura. The Acura has been the best car we've ever had.
My company switched to Avis and I started getting GM rent-a-cars. When I sit down in a Chevy or a Pontiac (and previously Oldsmobiles, which have gone the way GM is currently going) they just seem cheap--manual seat adjustments, cheesy looking dash, no or flimsy consoles. Buicks, which I regularly get as a comp ugrade, are as nice as the Fords I previously rented. So, GM knows how to build some nice cars, they just don't do enough of them. But still, I don't like getting Chevrolets or Pontiacs when I show up at Avis.
Since I've retired into consulting, my rent-a-car experiences run a month or so per rental. Avis now upgrades me into various other brand cars, I still like the Buicks I get on occasion. But, I've taken a liking to the smaller cars for manuverability reasons. My favorite at the moment is the Nissan Altima, nice fit and finish and fairly peppy for it's small motor. I even got a small Chevrolet Malibu for a while and it's fit and finish was actually quite nice, but it's motor wasn't up to the Altima's. A colleague on that assignment got a Kia and he was quite impressed. It was nice enough that I'll actually accept one now if one turns up on a rental--previously I'd refuse a Korean car.
Avis was out of cars on a recent trip and I got a Subaru Outback at Hertz. I've always wondered about Outbacks, they are popular where I live (just below the snow belt in the Sierra Nevada Mountains) for the 4 wheel drive. Four wheel drive can pass by chain control when it snows. Anyway, it was a nice car but a little underpowered for my taste. Maybe if it is offered with a manual transmission, it might be accecptable.
Only cars, I don't seem to get when renting are Chrysler products.
When I grew up my family always bought Chevys. Starting in the late 70s we gravitated to Fords, now my family (and adult chldren) buy Honda and Ford products. At home we still have the Acura 3.2 for my wife and my daily driver is a Honda Civic hatchback or a F250 6.0 diesel, quad cab, 4WD. We also have a few really old Fords (30s, 40s) in the garage. Previously, I drove an 80s Toyota 4 banger pick-up for 180,000 miles and it was a good, sturdy, reliable truck.
I regret that GM is having troubles, but they just don't measure up to the quality of the competition. I'd like to think that they can turn this around, but I fear they'll go the way of US steel... to bad too.
PBinWA
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I think it will be a long time before GM "goes away". Didn't the US taxpayer bail out Chrysler so Mercedes Benz could eventually buy it?
Pension funds (and SS - but that is political) are almost always an off shoot of Ponzi scams. Especially since they were manipulated and managed so poorly over the last 10-20 years. Any company with such a large pension burden is going to "hurt" for the forseeable future. I suspect that United Airlines has set the precedent though and we the tax payer will ultimately pay the price. It looks like getting the tax payer to take over your pension plan will be the corporate strategy for the future.
I would prefer to let PONS (Process of Natural Selection) deal with GM but that is just my preference.
I agree with one of the previous posters. There are too many options being offered by American car makers. Most of the options are barely discernable from the other.
Just make the basic vehicle and make it properly. Let the dealers or the customers bare the cost for customizations and add-ons. Maybe three different trim levels but no more. Cut your costs and inventory by being more efficient.
Pension funds (and SS - but that is political) are almost always an off shoot of Ponzi scams. Especially since they were manipulated and managed so poorly over the last 10-20 years. Any company with such a large pension burden is going to "hurt" for the forseeable future. I suspect that United Airlines has set the precedent though and we the tax payer will ultimately pay the price. It looks like getting the tax payer to take over your pension plan will be the corporate strategy for the future.
I would prefer to let PONS (Process of Natural Selection) deal with GM but that is just my preference.
I agree with one of the previous posters. There are too many options being offered by American car makers. Most of the options are barely discernable from the other.
Just make the basic vehicle and make it properly. Let the dealers or the customers bare the cost for customizations and add-ons. Maybe three different trim levels but no more. Cut your costs and inventory by being more efficient.