Is it Illegal to....

[hsdfcu]

It's most likely not a matter of caring or not caring; it's a matter of having evidence that a court will accept. And yes, it would difficult to enforce or prove a case unless there's an eyewitness.

Evidence you need to prove it was there. I removed it, why, when etc? It is more like a waste of tax payers money to inforce the rule. Just like many others of laws out there.

For me I would say who cares. Unless the people around you are like crazy, no one will notice anything gone.

 

[tallyho8]

I think surveys are completely worthless in most cases nowadays. I just bought 6 acres of a neighbors property last month. They made me get a survey because I was only buying part of the property. They came out with a gps and put up markers on the 4 corners of the property only. (Actually 3 corners because they said one corner was in a ditch so they couldn't mark it) The survey shows no fence lines, no buildings, nothing except 4 straight lines enclosing the 4 corners. Since my property is 3000' long, how could I, or anyone else tell if my fence or building in the middle of the property is actually on my land? It took them 2 hours for the survey and this survey costs me $6000.00. We checked with 8 surveyors and this is the lowest quote we received. I want to try to get my grandson to be a surveyor instead of a lawyer.

 

[Jimbrown]

Well it surley is here in Arizona. and here is a direct quote form the Arizona state statutes.

D. A person who knowingly or by gross negligence destroys, disfigures, removes or disturbs monuments described in subsection C or other permanent monuments set by the land surveyor which have the land surveyor's or public agency's cap or tag affixed to the monument is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.
E. A person acting independently or a person in responsible charge of another person who destroys, disfigures or disturbs monuments described in subsection C or other permanent monuments set by the land surveyor which have the land surveyor's or public agency's cap or tag affixed to the monument shall be civilly liable to the state, political subdivision or any other person for all costs associated with restoration or replacement of any monument destroyed, disfigured, removed or disturbed. The remedies under this subsection are in addition to any penalty which can be imposed under subsection D.

 

[randy41]

my nephew is a surveyor.
i've also done tax work for a surveying company and they make tons of money.

 

[MikePA]

It is more like a waste of tax payers money to inforce the rule.

As with 'many' laws, people find them useless and a waste to 'inforce' until they're the one whose rights are being violated. In this case, the law is a waste to enforce until it's your land someone else is trying to take by moving survey markers.

 

[hsdfcu]

property lines etc are all online. The ones in the yards are not worth the time. Again you could remove it and no one would care. Then again I would not even ask this thread.

Laws are great for the ones that mean something (no this one). Again all these things are all online and makers are meaningless. I could take my marker and put it 20 feet to my neighbor. If you look online (for the city) that is the correct one.

This to me like telling my I have to get a bulding permit (no one does), call dig safe, etc.

 

[DieselPower]

In PA it's illegal.

http://www.psls.org/Info/HB0496P4210.pdf

(2) A PERSON COMMITS A misdemeanor of the second degree
if he willfully or maliciously cuts, injures, damages,
destroys, defaces or removes any survey monument or marker in
order to call into question a boundary line.
(b) Restitution.--Any person convicted of violating this
section shall, in addition to any other penalty imposed, be
liable for the cost of the reestablishment of permanent survey
monuments or markers by a professional land surveyor and all reasonable attorney fees.

 

[MikePA]

property lines etc are all online. The ones in the yards are not worth the time.

'Property lines' are not online. Deed descriptions and plot plans are in some areas, but not property lines. 'Ones in yards' are the ones that matter since they're the ones that determine where my property stops and my neighbor's starts.

 

[MikePA]

In PA it's illegal.

Interesting. Thanks!

 

[RobJ]

so if you pull up a stake and theres no one around to see you do it is it illegal?
if a tree falls in a forest and theres no one around to hear it does it make any noise?
a neighbor once told me that some of my land really belonged to my neighbor across the road because the road was one of the boundaries and the road has moved since the original survey. but i have a survey that shows the road where it is now. i think there is a common law that land you consider yours and you make use of as if it is yours and there has been no complaint about it for 7 years then the land is actually yours. ok...so i didnt really pay close attention when i took business law.

Well if I pull it up then yes I would know that it was done. If the law says it;s illegal..then I broke the law.

Yes a tree that falls does make noise...you are just not there to here it. Wanna try the fridge light?

A road is not a boundary, roads can be put in, moved, etc. Creeks "might?" be different. But a creek, river, etc changes over the years. If a place is sold then the new meets and bounds may be put in place. BUT, the creek may be used as a general boundary, if the creek moves 2 feet then your line has technically NOT moved. On my BIL's place the creek was used as a boundary, in some cases the line goes 2', then 3', then 8', etc. But looking at all the old deeds, it does not say "creek". It goes to a metal spike, or a in some cases to a 18" pin oak, etc. In this case the tree was used as a marker. If the tree goes away or is cut down, that doesn't mean my boundary is moved, just the marker.

On my place most of the road is by meets and bounds mine. But of course the county has setbacks and such that I can't build over. Also to add my place is a big triangle, the triangle was made when the county came in and put in a road. The owner of the now 5.5-acres split off by the road (from another 90-acres) sold off the property to my BIL, who gave me 2-acres and the mostly unuseable part of the piece (the 5.5 connects to his property). Although an odd shape, it has made a perfect weekend place home site!!

BTW, if you move a boundary in golf...it's a 2 stroke penality.

 

[tallyho8]

There is an island in the Mississippi River that was deeded to a person whose heirs now own the property. The island was originally in Mississippi but islands move. Over the years the upriver side breaks down and the downriver side builds up, moving the island downstream. The island is now in Louisiana territory. Do the heirs still own this island, or did their island disappear and this is a new island? This issue may be decided in Federal Court before long.

 

[MikePA]

Deeds are based on directions and distances, i.e., longitudes and latitudes, Those do not move.

 

[DieselPower]

Just my opinion but I would think they still own the original land they owned before. Granted their land may now be under water but that's what they own now, water. Their property didn't change it's place on earth, their little piece of earth just happened to have washed away.

 

[hsdfcu]

'Property lines' are not online. Deed descriptions and plot plans are in some areas, but not property lines. 'Ones in yards' are the ones that matter since they're the ones that determine where my property stops and my neighbor's starts.

I do not know where you live but mine are. Even trash routes, water lines, sewer, man holes, fire lines, elevation, home valve (everything to do it it) etc. It is all there based on the city (deeds) etc.

Again, ones in the yard means zero (I do not have any). I know that since our area has none. Good luck finding any.

 

[hsdfcu]

Deeds are based on directions and distances, i.e., longitudes and latitudes, Those do not move.

That is what I have been trying to tell you. All this stuff is online. If not in your area, tell them to get up to 1990.

 

[hsdfcu]

In PA it's illegal.

http://www.psls.org/Info/HB0496P4210.pdf

(2) A PERSON COMMITS A misdemeanor of the second degree
if he willfully or maliciously cuts, injures, damages,
destroys, defaces or removes any survey monument or marker in
order to call into question a boundary line.
(b) Restitution.--Any person convicted of violating this
section shall, in addition to any other penalty imposed, be
liable for the cost of the reestablishment of permanent survey
monuments or markers by a professional land surveyor and all reasonable attorney fees.

Good find but tell me the number of people that got nailed for it. I bet the # is very small if any.

 

[Richard]

That does it for me, all too confusing...I'm selling my house and going back to renting...

 

[AndyM]

What about an illegally placed one?

That would depend on who illegally placed it, and who is making the determination of who did the illegal placement.

Did you mean "illegal" or "incorrect"? I don't think any surveyor is intentionally putting markers down frauduently. If they made a mistake, I would think the surveyor would be called back, or another surveyor, to recheck and correct as needed. As a non-professional, I don't think it's my place to make the determination whether I should pull up markers that I think are in the wrong place.

At our former house, the neighbor disagreed with the village, the surrounding neighbors, and all of the surveyors involved, and pulled up all of the markers he contended were wrong, and continued to build structures and dump his trash in areas he felt was his property. When he sold the property, he misrepresented the boundaries to the buyer, who thought he was getting more land than he actually received. He was quite angry when I put up my new fence across his property, only to discover the property wasn't actually his!

 

[MikePA]

Good find but tell me the number of people that got nailed for it. I bet the # is very small if any.

What's the number of people 'nailed for it' got to do with anything?

 

[txdon]

"That is what I have been trying to tell you. All this stuff is on line. If not in your area, tell them to get up to 1990." - hsdfcu


Hsdfcu, when the majority people in the county do not have the INTERNET there is really no interest in getting surveys on-line in the County.

Bird, that is what I was looking for, almost. The next question a D. A. would ask is what is the value of the "tangible property" so the penalty can be affixed. Would the answer to that be the $1.50 pin or the $6,000.00 survey to find the exact place of the pin. The exact place was not moved it is still there. ???? If it is the cost to put it in the exact same place does that mean for Texas the range of penalties could span from a Misdemeanor to a felony?

I was wondering if Texas had a specific law, like some of the other states mentioned have?

Eddie, I would ask my surveyor but he died. When he (my surveyor)bought my land (in the 70's) the survey said 70 acres. When he sold it to his brother it had increased to 120 acres. After I spent 3 hot Texas August days with him going over every foot of boundary it grew another 5 acres.... It must be this fault line I'm on....What California looses Texas gains.. .

Back to the original question ,by the way, which has nothing to do with my property.

So far - Some states do have laws specific to survey markers and the other states must be creative and affix a value to the removal of the marker IF they can prove intent, AND have an eyewitness, (or confession backed with supporting evidence).