Is it me or is this sight still slow?

Muhammad · Jul 13, 2003

You may be confusing random access memory (RAM) with hard drive size. 

As others mentioned, web servers are different in their needs than personal computers. In our case, a lack of RAM is indeed what is slowing us down.

With our current amount of RAM we can only handle a certain number of connections to the database at any time, and once that limit is reached, you get delays. During peak hours we reach that limit.

Upgrading the RAM will give us much more capacity... might not be exactly triple capacity, but it will be a lot more than we have now.

In most cases, RAM is the most important hardware of a web server... in fact Google runs their servers on RAM alone---no hard drives to store data. They need a LOT of ram, but their site is pretty darn fast. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

JohnMiller3 · Jul 13, 2003

Hi Muhammad,

Without exact figures... maybe you can translate this to dollars and cents...

Even though memory is dirt cheap... I'm assuming the "server" company charges more per month... the rest of TBN's natural life...

For a generic situation, can you briefly explain how this basically works and how the charges are derived...? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Muhammad · Jul 13, 2003

With managed hosting (what we use), you pay a base monthly fee for a server at a specific configuration, and any upgrades increase that monthly fee.

The reason for using managed hosting is that you gain access to a data center (warehouse where thousands of servers are stored) that has an open connection (pipe) much larger than you would have with a co-located server or an in-house server (options that would involve owning the equipment, rather than renting/leasing).

B7500 · Jul 13, 2003

"In most cases, RAM is the most important hardware of a web server... in fact Google runs their servers on RAM alone---no hard drives to store data. They need a LOT of ram, but their site is pretty darn fast. "

Very interesting Muhammad. I never knew that. And yes, they are VERY darn fast.
-Terry

Dahammer · Jul 14, 2003

in fact Google runs their servers on RAM alone---no hard drives to store data. 

Google is a web crawler, they don't need lots of storage do they? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Just a bunch of clusters. Since RAM is dynamic where is the redundancy? Google doesn't store the complete index of the Library of Congress. The Library of Congress has that stored on their servers. Google is a glorified shopping bot (?). Can you point me to some white papers that discuss Google hardware? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I bet there is storage somewhere. Isn't tractorbynet data stored on a hard drive? When I click on thread what *exactly* happens? Is every thread cached in RAM? A hard drive has an access time in theory of maybe 10ms, RAM is in the nanosconds. RAM would be much quicker but it would have to some kind of Static Ram vs Dynamic. Thanks

glennmac · Jul 15, 2003

I wasn't confusing ram with hard drive capacity, and I am still curious about the technical question concealed in my parody.

How is it that the 1500th busiest website in the world, with all the access and paging activity that goes on, can operate with the same amount of ram (512 mb) as my modestly configured laptop. It can't be that I have a wretched excess of ram. It can't be that TBN has Californicationary deficit of ram.

So, is there something inherently different--in operation and capacity needs--between how much ram is in a consumer standalone box like a laptop and how much ram is allocated to a client by a service bureau?

JohnMiller3 · Jul 15, 2003

...I am still curious about the technical question concealed in my parody. ... 

Hi Glenn,

I thought Muhammad addressed your question... it basically boiled down to costing more $$$ per month for more RAM being used...

It's not like you and I buying additional ram and paying a "one shot deal"... TBN would keep paying and paying and paying... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

(not trying to answer for Muhammad, by the way.../forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Ibrahim · Jul 15, 2003

Glenmac,

Our servers run on the Linux Operating System. While not a perfect OS by any means, it is signifigantly better at using it's RAM than the average Windows OS. Same, I'd guess, goes for the Macs.

Everything that runs on our server runs from Ram. Linux juggles everything so it stays in Ram. The trouble with just 512 megs of ram is that EVERY request to the database (read: every single page on TBN) adds one or two mysql accesses. (The banners, the messages, etc) and with those accesses, more RAM is eaten up. Also, let's not forget the webserver process itself has to be running for the user. So that's extra ram also being used.

Some of these queries to the database are not very well written (this is more the fault of our message board software compounded with the size of the database.)

So when you have more than one (sometimes more than 5) of these slow requests hitting the database, it not only locks the database (don't want corruption caused by more than 1 update at the same time) and makes things wait in line, but it ALSO keeps hold of it's Ram.

This is when we have problems. Because if we have a long line, and each item in the line is holding a large bit of memory, and then even MORE people come in from behind (and don't forget that lots of you guys will hit refresh, which doubles the load) and soon you're out of Ram.

What does the server do when it's out of ram? It hits 'swap'. Swap is the space on the harddrive that the server uses as "Pretend" Ram.

As has already been stated, access times to harddrives are in the millisecond range. Access to Ram is in the Nanosecond range.

So if something in swap takes 10 milliseconds compared to 10 nanoseconds in Ram... the swap is 1,000,000 slower than the Ram. Literally! (not the figurative "million times faster")

So when we plan on adding in that extra Ram, we're just giving it all more room for a line, and a fast line. You see, it's running through this line real fast, but when it has to start putting the line in the parking lot, the cars can't pull in anymore, and you have sloooow waits everywhere.

Hope that explained some things to people.

-Ibrahim

Harv · Jul 15, 2003

( It can't be that TBN has Californicationary deficit of ram )

Speaking as a Californian, Glenn, let me tell you that, uh... well... Never mind. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Dahammer · Jul 15, 2003

<snip> Hope that explained some things to people. 

Thanks, what I was thinking is that well, if you need RAM you go down to the local computer store and for pennies pick up a GB or so and stick it the box. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. .I guess it is not that simple. Instead you will be "leasing" more RAM from your hosting service and paying for it over and over...