Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?

   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #241  
I appreciate all the information, but it's way over my head. I like simplicity which is why my one bitcoin example.
Gold for example (I don't own any...just what I looked up) right now is about $3,000/ounce which is what you pay, then if you sell it a month later and it's now $3,100/ounce you would receive 95% because of commission. So you paid $3,000 and a month later receive $2,945. If instead gold went to $3,200/ounce you would get $3,040 so you made $40.
That's simple & easy to understand.
Can cryptocurrency (bitcoin specifically) be explained like that?
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?
  • Thread Starter
#242  
I appreciate all the information, but it's way over my head. I like simplicity which is why my one bitcoin example.
Gold for example (I don't own any...just what I looked up) right now is about $3,000/ounce which is what you pay, then if you sell it a month later and it's now $3,100/ounce you would receive 95% because of commission. So you paid $3,000 and a month later receive $2,945. If instead gold went to $3,200/ounce you would get $3,040 so you made $40.
That's simple & easy to understand.
Can cryptocurrency (bitcoin specifically) be explained like that?

Yes, if you sell Bitcoin at a higher price than you purchased it, your gain is reflected in your account balance.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #243  
Yes, if you sell Bitcoin at a higher price than you purchased it, your gain is reflected in your account balance.
I understand that's true with anything. What I'm trying to understand is watching bitcoin live streaming which I did just now and every second the price is fluctuating up and down.
1) what does one coin cost me??? When I buy it...at what "second" is it that I pay???
2) If it's, say, $82,240,34, is THAT what I pay?
3) If it goes to $82,528.55 and I sell...what's the "commission"? Did I make a profit?
It's so confusing because it can be $82,528.55 and a minute later be up or down $500!
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?
  • Thread Starter
#244  
I understand that's true with anything. What I'm trying to understand is watching bitcoin live streaming which I did just now and every second the price is fluctuating up and down.
1) what does one coin cost me??? When I buy it...at what "second" is it that I pay???
2) If it's, say, $82,240,34, is THAT what I pay?
3) If it goes to $82,528.55 and I sell...what's the "commission"? Did I make a profit?
It's so confusing because it can be $82,528.55 and a minute later be up or down $500!

The same thing happens with equity prices, bonds, options, commodities.

Again, learning about the types of orders matters.

In equity trading, common order types include market orders for immediate execution at the best price, limit orders to buy or sell at a specific price, and stop orders to trigger a trade when a certain price is reached, such as stop-loss or stop-limit orders.

Here's a more detailed breakdown of common equity order types:


Basic Order Types:
  • Market Order:
    This order instructs the broker to buy or sell the stock immediately at the best available price.

  • Limit Order:
    This order allows you to specify a price at which you're willing to buy or sell the stock.The order will only be executed if the stock price reaches or exceeds the limit price (for buy orders) or falls to or below the limit price (for sell orders).

  • Stop Order:
    This order becomes active only when the stock price reaches a specified trigger price.Once the trigger price is reached, the stop order becomes a market order (for stop-loss) or a limit order (for stop-limit).
    • Stop-Loss Order: A stop-loss order is used to limit potential losses by automatically selling a stock when the price falls to a specified level.

    • Stop-Limit Order: This order combines the features of a stop order and a limit order. The stop price triggers the order, which then becomes a limit order to be executed at the specified limit price or better.

Advanced Order Types:
  • Trailing Stop Order:
    This order allows you to set a stop-loss price that moves up or down with the stock price, providing a dynamic way to protect profits or limit losses.

  • Bracket Order:
    This order type is used in intraday trading to limit losses by placing a target price and a stop-loss price along with the main order.

  • Cover Order:
    This order type is a market order or limit order placed along with a stop-loss order, used to minimize losses in intraday trading.

  • Take Profit Order:
    This order specifies a profit target, at which point a stock would be sold and the trade would close.

  • Fill or Kill (FOK):
    This order requires immediate and complete execution of a trade or its cancellation, and is typical of large orders.

  • Good-til-Canceled (GTC):
    This order remains open until it's filled, canceled, or for equities, if the stock undergoes a corporate action.

  • Immediate or Cancel (IOC):
    This order gets executed immediately. Any portion of the order that cannot be fulfilled immediately gets canceled.

  • Hidden Order:
    This order type allows traders to place orders that are not visible to other market participants.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #245  
I really appreciate all the detail but just hoping for a simple explanation.
Bitcoin price changes every second.
I want to buy one coin. What do I pay? Where/how.
I want to sell. What do I get?
It can't be as simple as looking at a computer screen then NOW! and I paid $82,234.55
Then I'm watching and see $83,234.55 then NOW! and I just made $1,000.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #246  
I want to sell. What do I get?

All to often hung out to dry... (and yes I know Changelly isn't the "best" exchange but coinbase and the rest pull the same games).

1742745469448.png
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #249  
I really appreciate all the detail but just hoping for a simple explanation.
Bitcoin price changes every second.
I want to buy one coin. What do I pay? Where/how.
I want to sell. What do I get?
It can't be as simple as looking at a computer screen then NOW! and I paid $82,234.55
Then I'm watching and see $83,234.55 then NOW! and I just made $1,000.
When you buy any kind of security, first you have to put money on deposit with a broker. Then you enter in a buy order and specify the number of shares. The broker executes the purchase at whatever the price happens to be at the moment of purchase and takes that much money out of your account. If you don't have enough money in your account the purchase fails. When you go to sell, the broker sells at the current market and credits your account.

The broker doesn't do this for free, how he gets paid depends on what's customary in that market. In some markets he gets a flat fee per transaction or per share. Sometimes he takes a percentage. Sometimes there's a spread between buying and selling prices. I have no idea what is customary with crypto.

It used to be customary that the broker would execute the purchase and then wait before recording it to the customer. If the price went down or stayed the same the trade would go through. If the price went up the broker would record the original trade to his own account and then sell it to the customer at the higher price. This is called "front-running" and is now illegal in US stock markets. I don't see how front-running could be prevented in crypto markets.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?
  • Thread Starter
#250  
I really appreciate all the detail but just hoping for a simple explanation.
Bitcoin price changes every second.
I want to buy one coin. What do I pay? Where/how.
I want to sell. What do I get?
It can't be as simple as looking at a computer screen then NOW! and I paid $82,234.55
Then I'm watching and see $83,234.55 then NOW! and I just made $1,000.

Quicksandfarmer offered a very good description.

The price bouncing around is a live spot price. Every time there is a transaction the price of the transaction is published as a "print" (going back to when records of transactions were literally printed on a ticker tape). The price bouncing up and down can seem very arbitrary to anybody who doesn't know what they are looking at.

Here is a educational video that I hope will help you understand.

 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?
  • Thread Starter
#251  
All to often hung out to dry... (and yes I know Changelly isn't the "best" exchange but coinbase and the rest pull the same games).

View attachment 3168885

Self custody is the way to go.

And you're right, all brokerages play games.

Why can't I have free level 3? I want to see what is going on in your "dark pool" so I can see the level and volume of buy and sell orders stacking up in real time! Whadda mean I need a Series 7?

Some time ago I pulled nearly everything off of a domestic crypto broker but the broker couldn't execute because THEY had my crypto staked according to the rule of hypothecation, which is of course buried in the tiny print of every brokerage account agreement.

So yeah, it is easy to become jaded if a person DOESN'T know what is going on under the hood. Moving that kind of volume in a swap should be done in smaller amounts. But here is the deal: with domestic banks being able to custody their own crypto, you KNOW those same banks are also going to fire up their own nodes so that their own accounts don't get hung up on the same kind of delays when they're making interbank loans to each other every day as they do.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #252  
Self custody is the way to go.

I mean... I could post dozens of cases where people had their wallets hacked.. and not just hot wallets but cold wallets. Or worse the people who were kidnapped and tortured to force them to hand over their keys (being stupid and loud about having a large amount of "currency" mostly used by criminals.. not wise lol). Practically speaking most people are absolutely terrible at computer security so expecting them to secure a crypto wallet is wildly impractical.

Also good luck ever getting real money out of the system without going through an exchange... (or I mean with going through an exchange even hah.. but it's MUCH harder to do a private sale).
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?
  • Thread Starter
#253  
I mean... I could post dozens of cases where people had their wallets hacked.. and not just hot wallets but cold wallets. Or worse the people who were kidnapped and tortured to force them to hand over their keys (being stupid and loud about having a large amount of "currency" mostly used by criminals.. not wise lol). Practically speaking most people are absolutely terrible at computer security so expecting them to secure a crypto wallet is wildly impractical.

Also good luck ever getting real money out of the system without going through an exchange... (or I mean with going through an exchange even hah.. but it's MUCH harder to do a private sale).

I was just arguing with a buddy about getting rid of his stupid software wallet. I mean what social security or brokerage HASN'T been hacked by now? I mean after 200,000,000 Americans socials had been hacked from Experain in 2015, I thought, finally Congress will fix the Fair Isaac and social security issue, but, no.

And by 2015, I was an old hand at ID theft after 1998 when people were using my SS and credit score TO BUY A HOUSE and how I found out about it was only because the mortgage broker managing the loan misplaced my phone "number" and looked me up in a phone book and called me. Nowadays, we know what was taking place as a title scam but back then, a bank VP, the mortgage broker, the police and I were all in a room trying to puzzle out how the scam even worked and this when our SS were plastered on everything. I mean nowadays I cannot show pictures of my old Army dog tags because my SS is on them! But I digress.

What I'm getting at is that scams are a thing. And the shade you're throwing on crypto is nothing new in our brave, new unprotected world. Which is why Bitcoin is awesome because Bitcoin is a thing you can truly own.

Security wise, nowadays I take every security continuing education elective I can. From those classes not only have I met many entertaining people, but I've learned most breaches happen from stupid places that have no right to your SS. The local power coop that wants your SS even though they know your address, nope, nada. The dentist or specialist that wants your SS, nope, nada!

Most companies that were "trained" in the past to ask for an SS number really have no right and no security and insofar as I'm concerned to have reason to hold your SS number on file. With that in mind, I CANNOT wait to put title work on the blockchain to dampen real estate scams. As far as title issues come up in my neck of the woods (I still live in world where many long-unsold property descriptions start with a bearing tree that no longer exists), eventually even those will get sorted out and all of it will be easy to put on a blockchain to show custody. Meanwhile, until then, in city centers where the kind of issues I mentioned have long been sorted out, I'm advocating for security that real estate titles be but on blockchains so that we have an undisputed chain of custody that is scam resistant.


So what I'm getting at here, runwrks, is that I get that you know a thing or two about the subject material. All I can say is that I really want to use the tech to make the (largely gone) security problems that you and I are both well aware of more secure.* Whether you agree or disagree is another question and especially for me in a Christian eschatology aspect because, reasons...


* with the exception of my real estate holdings and cashflow, the majority of my wealth is now in crypto because money goes where it is treated best.
 
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   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #254  
I'll watch that when I get time. I guess it's too complicated to explain easily in simple terms.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #255  
With that in mind, I CANNOT wait to put title work on the blockchain to dampen real estate scams. As far as title issues come up in my neck of the woods (I still live in world where many long-unsold property descriptions start with a bearing tree that no longer exists), eventually even those will get sorted out and all of it will be easy to put on a blockchain to show custody. Meanwhile, until then, in city centers where the kind of issues I mentioned have long been sorted out, I'm advocating for security that real estate titles be but on blockchains so that we have an undisputed chain of custody that is scam resistant.
I don't see real estate records as a good application of blockchain.

The usefulness of blockchain is that it allows a group of people who all have interest in keeping a set of records to keep them collectively, without any one person being in charge of the records, and without anyone having to trust anyone else. That's pretty remarkable. Imagine you're playing Monopoly with your siblings, who you would happily cheat and lie to. And your parents have left you alone, there's no one but the players in the game. And instead of having physical money and deeds and houses and hotels, you've decided to write it all down in a ledger. Well, whoever keeps that ledger is going to be able to cheat and win. Blockchain allows everyone to keep a copy of the ledger that everyone else agrees to. There are real-world applications of blockchain. International banking is pretty much like Monopoly with siblings, there are no referees, only other players. And criminal activity doesn't have referees either.

But real estate records aren't like that. There is a central authority, the town or county that collects property taxes, and it has a very strong incentive to keep the records accurate. In a blockchain system if you lose access to your tokens that's your problem and your problem alone -- something like 10% of all bitcoin ever mined have been irretrievably lost. In a real estate title system that would be a real problem. In real estate there are transfers all the time that are not initiated by the owner. A very common transfer is when the owner dies and the property passes to the heirs, but you also have to deal with foreclosures, divorces and tax sales.

The biggest problem in real estate titles is impersonation, there isn't any way in our society to conclusively prove identity. Saying that possessing a blockchain token is proof of ownership doesn't really solve the problem, it just kicks it down a layer, now you have to worry about people fraudulently obtaining those tokens. As a practical matter blockchain doesn't do anything that couldn't be done just by having the land registry issue every landowner a passcode. A passcode system would have the benefit that lost passcodes could be replaced and passcodes could be revoked if necessary.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #256  
Saying that possessing a blockchain token is proof of ownership doesn't really solve the problem, it just kicks it down a layer, now you have to worry about people fraudulently obtaining those tokens.

And worse it encodes it in a "code is law" system. I've been a programmer for 30+ years as my day job and I'm hear to tell y'all right now that the probability of there being latent bugs in even the most trivial seeming code approaches 100% given enough time Most blockchain implementations are .. not... the more trivial code either (for a variety of reasons). There are a number of hilarious.. if you're a bystander anyway.. cases where people have discovered that the code didn't encode the law they thought it did.

I get the appeal of the idea in the abstract.. but when you think about the problems with implementing it.. it's another solution in search of a problem where the cure is worse than any of the known diseases.

Aside .. today in absurd crypto news...
"Crypto Investor Loses $12M in BNB After Cat 'Pickle' Eats Seed Phrase"

Certainly funnier than the guy trying to buy a garbage dump to get the harddrive with his crypto wallet on it back.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #257  
I'll watch that when I get time. I guess it's too complicated to explain easily in simple terms.
Blockchain allows two parties to do an irreversible transfer that both parties are able to verify without either party knowing the identity of the other or having to trust the other. That's the good part. Every owner of Bitcoin has a software application called a wallet that holds their Bitcoin, if you have the address of someone's wallet you can send them some of your Bitcoin.

But most transactions are going to have another side, where you receive something of value in exchange for Bitcoin, or give something of value in exchange. Since Bitcoin is anonymous and irreversible, you have to trust that the other party is going to carry through, or have some sort of enforcement mechanism. Which kind of defeats the appeal.

If you look at what happened with Sam Bankman-Fried, the problem wasn't that he was falsifying Bitcoin transactions but the other side. And the way his victims got repaid wasn't by reversing the Bitcoin transactions but through the old-fashioned legal and banking systems.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?
  • Thread Starter
#258  
Unfortunately,
I don't see real estate records as a good application of blockchain.

The usefulness of blockchain is that it allows a group of people who all have interest in keeping a set of records to keep them collectively, without any one person being in charge of the records, and without anyone having to trust anyone else. That's pretty remarkable. Imagine you're playing Monopoly with your siblings, who you would happily cheat and lie to. And your parents have left you alone, there's no one but the players in the game. And instead of having physical money and deeds and houses and hotels, you've decided to write it all down in a ledger. Well, whoever keeps that ledger is going to be able to cheat and win. Blockchain allows everyone to keep a copy of the ledger that everyone else agrees to. There are real-world applications of blockchain. International banking is pretty much like Monopoly with siblings, there are no referees, only other players. And criminal activity doesn't have referees either.

But real estate records aren't like that. There is a central authority, the town or county that collects property taxes, and it has a very strong incentive to keep the records accurate. In a blockchain system if you lose access to your tokens that's your problem and your problem alone -- something like 10% of all bitcoin ever mined have been irretrievably lost. In a real estate title system that would be a real problem. In real estate there are transfers all the time that are not initiated by the owner. A very common transfer is when the owner dies and the property passes to the heirs, but you also have to deal with foreclosures, divorces and tax sales.

The biggest problem in real estate titles is impersonation, there isn't any way in our society to conclusively prove identity. Saying that possessing a blockchain token is proof of ownership doesn't really solve the problem, it just kicks it down a layer, now you have to worry about people fraudulently obtaining those tokens. As a practical matter blockchain doesn't do anything that couldn't be done just by having the land registry issue every landowner a passcode. A passcode system would have the benefit that lost passcodes could be replaced and passcodes could be revoked if necessary.

You're right. The idea behind placing titles on the blockchain is we would have a clear record from where the title was transferred. Nowadays it is so easy to falsify an ID and title scams work against the entire real estate industry's "ease of access" (for lack of a better way to describe things). As a regular client without any mortgages, imagine that you live out-of-state from RE that you want to sell. You call a random broker hoping to list your RE. The RE firm confirms (what is really public knowledge if you know where and how to look) your RE and the RE broker makes it easy to sign online forms to list your RE. Everything seems very formal and official. Clearly you are talking to professionals who know their trade and clearly they are interested in representing your best interests throughout the process (as they should).

Yay, your listing broker receives an offer from another brokerage representing the BUYERS and you accept the offer via remote signing over the internet that is well-encrypted. Now in Minnesota, closing is its own trade, so the entire deal now moves over to a title company while the brokers manage inspections and any resulting concerns that rise up from the title company finding clouds on the title and deficiencies from inspections that need to be resolve or renegotiated as well as any lending concerns. Buyer inspections are performed via professionals, defects are curing going into closing, the bank's mortgage officer pulls the assessment to make certain the RE is worth what the BUYERS have offered and are asking for a loan on. Maybe a Radon test is pulled, and if the RE fails the test, that genie is out of the bottle forever! So at BUYERS expense to be settled at closing, a radon remediation system is installed. Everything looks as though we're settling in for a smooth closing.

Meanwhile, the title company may be the same title company for both the BUYERS and the SELLERS, or there may be one title company for for SELLERS and a different title company for the BUYERS. It doesn't matter. Each title company needs SS#s, driver's licenses numbers and whatnot to confirm the BUYERS and the SELLERS identity. Because you're remote, you can do this all over the internet via curiously well-secured encryption. Cool, how convenient. On the day of closing the eager BUYERS, already having done a walk-through the RE with their agent, they show up in person to their title company while you have already closed remotely via certified mail, and signing online when possible. You've already authorized the wire fee to electronically transfer the funds from the from selling your RE to you remote account less title fees, deed tax, county recording fee, commissions, punch list expenses, inspection fees and what not that have all been settled at closing by the title company(s).

Neat, happy BUYERS, happy SELLERS!

Except, you're not who you say you are, and ID hacked the remote owners who were blissfully in another part of the country or world, and now the county thinks they know there is a new owner, and while that is a mess, everybody who did work on the RE is now filing mechanical liens because as soon as the bank found out fraud was involved, the bank started trying to recover its lost funds while law enforcement is trying to recover the capital loss that was wired off to never, never land.

For me, I'm just looking at the security and unwinding scams aspects, but to be sure, there are other reasons to tokenize RE. The biggest reason for blockchains in the future of real estate is that blockchains will make real estate investments more accessible by tokenizing them, allowing for fractional ownership and eliminating entry hurdles.



Real Estate Smart Contracts.png


I farmed the slide above to AI since I've already typed enough.
 
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   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet? #259  
In the scenario you outlined, the onus of verifying the identity of the seller is on the title company. They're issuing title insurance, if the seller isn't who they say they are they have to make everyone else whole.

You haven't addressed how with blockchain you address the issue of ownership changing through outside events like inheritance, divorce, bankruptcy and foreclosure.

Fractional ownership of real estate is already possible, that's what a real estate investment trust (REIT) is. Changing how ownership is recorded won't change anything about how they operate.
 
   / Is it too soon to talk about Crypto yet?
  • Thread Starter
#260  
In the scenario you outlined, the onus of verifying the identity of the seller is on the title company. They're issuing title insurance, if the seller isn't who they say they are they have to make everyone else whole.

You haven't addressed how with blockchain you address the issue of ownership changing through outside events like inheritance, divorce, bankruptcy and foreclosure.

Fractional ownership of real estate is already possible, that's what a real estate investment trust (REIT) is. Changing how ownership is recorded won't change anything about how they operate.

I agree, but it is still a mess to unwind. The ChatGPD image thingy gave a quick overview (but uses ETH for its smart contracts example, sigh). That said, compared to an investment account needed to buy real estate investment trusts, a free wallet is a MUCH lower barrier to entry. Also RE is a bit of a diversion to the glorious ascendancy that crypto shall have our lives, which is of course, is the main thrust of this thread.
 

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