Is lack of training killing tractor operators?

[M5farms]

They teach tractor driving in high school in ag class.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

In my case it the slowing down of all systems but my brain wants to do what I did 50 years ago that is concerning to me. The equipment dealer was helping load out the used Bush Hog RDTH 84 we bought today almost got his hand hurt when his employee gave it a hard push when rolling it forward to tie it down. Machines are dangerous.

 

[bcp]

They teach tractor driving in high school in ag class.

I took one semester, then left. The program was 95% livestock, 5% crops, 0% machinery and equipment.

Bruce

 

[mcfarmall]

This might sound funny but before I was old enough to drive the tractor alone ( about ten years old ) I played with my 1/16 scale farm toys on the floor. I learned how to back up wagons and trailers by playing with my open station IH 560 and a plethora of wagons, trailers, augers, elevators, etc. I also had a tractor with a loader and a skid steer where I learned that carrying a heavy load of toys in the bucket was safer at a low height than at full reach. My dad also taught me the importance of never pulling from anything but the drawbar or a flip over may ensue.

I also spent many seat-hours riding around with the neighboring farmers, carefully watching everything they did and learning by observation.

Nowdays many of the people buying tractors have grown up with video game controllers in their hands and may not have had anyone in their family to teach them such things or any farmers to pester and learn from.

I know of an engineer that recently bought a tractor and he runs it like a kid who has absolutely no knowledge of what he's doing. He's going to either end up dead, severely injured or with a crumpled tractor.

 

[LD1]

Wow- if I keep operating this machinery I need to find a RN wife as well!!

Regarding the comment: “You are a pilot and do not understand CG ?” I believe I do, and am curious that perhaps you do not? But, to be fair, if not, you have a lot of company in the tractor world.

Imagine a long pole under your tractor from side to side. Lift that pole and place the tractor so precisely on it that it balances perfectly and does not pitch forward nor pitch backward. That is the CG point. The side to side pole represents the lateral axis.

Imagine a long pole running under your tractor from back to front. Lift that pole and place the tractor so precisely on it so that it balances perfectly and does not tip left or right. That is the longitudinal axis.

Many confuse a raised bucket with a change to CG and an increased threat. Actually, what is more sinister is that it undermines the stability along the longitudinal axis of the tractor. Making the tractor more tippy side to side. There is only a slight change to the forward/aft CG point, since the bucket travel is mostly up and down, with only a slight amount of change forward and aft. The CG does change slightly, but that is not the problem. It is the longitudinal stability. Even tractor safety "experts" commonly get this wrong.

Imagine a single engine airplane. Now, build a mount so that engine is five feet above where it used to be. With it in that location, the front to rear CG could be balanced, but even a slight bank to the left or right during flight would quickly get exaggerated resulting in likely lost control. That is the same longitudinal instability as the raised bucket.

To create a more legitimate issue with CG using a bucket, you’d need a telehandler. Fill the bucket, keep it the same height off the ground, but extend it forward ten feet. The rear wheels might lift of the ground, since the CG moved forward. But it would not be tippy side to side.

Anyway, the commenter helps make my point. With airplanes, I was provided quality data, including weights, charts, tables to work from, and an instructor to explain how it all fit together. With my tractor, I have far less information in a manual, with no personal instruction to fit it together. The misunderstanding about CG is an indicator of this lack of data or training. I do not advocate regulation. But I do see a very big difference between the training level for operating different, but dangerous equipment.

You seem to have a good understanding of only TWO of the THREE axis's of the center of gravity. X (left and right), Y (fore and aft)....but you are forgetting the most important. Z.....the COG height.

While raising a loader bucket, especially loaded, does have little effect on the COG position side to side or fore and aft....it raises it significantly. So any change of acceleration in any direction is alot more likely to tip the tractor. Not just side to side. Hit the brakes, go down a slight grade, and you tractor is likely to be on its nose and throwing you out of the seat in a split second.

And you make the comment in your opening post about how not driving around with an elevated loader may seem obvious to some, but it wasnt to you....clearly tells me you did not read the manual. Or if you did you didnt comprehend. Because every manual I have seen has that clearly spelled out.

We dont need training, or mandatory anything. IF you dont know what you are doing, read the manual. If you still dont know, as questions. Online, dealer, other owner, etc. And if you are still unsure of yourself, you have no business owning a tractor....and then proclaiming that their should be some training mandates for everyone.

Where would it end? Training for personal watercraft? Training for ATV's? Training for mowers? Training for chainsaws? Training for a personal lathe, mill, drillpress in your shop?

The world is full of dangerous equipment. Read the manual, believe it or not it will answer most of your questions.

 

[oosik]

When I came down onto the property in '82 - I bought a new Ford 1700 4WD. I had absolutely NO foreknowledge of tractors or how they work. I read my OP manual like the Holy Bible and got what I could from it. Then I was struck by a bolt of knowledge out of the blue. My neighbor - who had become a good friend - was a cattle rancher and drove large tractors.

I asked and he came over for an entire day and showed me how to operate my brand new tractor on my property. Undoubtedly - this one day saved my life. Certain things he showed were obvious - most were not and could have resulted in a serious accident. I have never and will never turn down any request for assistance from my neighbor.

What do I have to share with you from this experience - Most males are too macho to ask for advice on the operation of a tractor. What the H*LL - they can drive a car or truck and it can't be that different driving a tractor. Mother Nature just stands there smiling - with luck this newbie will gain the necessary skills and not kill himself. However - Nature gets her due because there are always going to be those few others............

 

[3930dave]

This might sound funny but before I was old enough to drive the tractor alone ( about ten years old ) I played with my 1/16 scale farm toys on the floor. I learned how to back up wagons and trailers by playing with my open station IH 560 and a plethora of wagons, trailers, augers, elevators, etc. I also had a tractor with a loader and a skid steer where I learned that carrying a heavy load of toys in the bucket was safer at a low height than at full reach. My dad also taught me the importance of never pulling from anything but the drawbar or a flip over may ensue.

I also spent many seat-hours riding around with the neighboring farmers, carefully watching everything they did and learning by observation.

Nowdays many of the people buying tractors have grown up with video game controllers in their hands and may not have had anyone in their family to teach them such things or any farmers to pester and learn from.

I know of an engineer that recently bought a tractor and he runs it like a kid who has absolutely no knowledge of what he's doing. He's going to either end up dead, severely injured or with a crumpled tractor.

All the comments posted resonate with me. I'm tying into this one, partly because it ties into 2 things that I keep coming back to in recent years - virtualization and abstraction.

Direct experience and personal accountability. My grandparents had books, and could read, but many/most things in their world they learned by direct experience. Personal accountability - back when, it was so pervasive that it was probably never discussed.

Jump forward to today.... things have drifted, a lot. We tend to displace directly responsible human behaviour with tech - it has limits to what it can compensate for, but I think the bigger problem is that for much of society, people get mentally lazy/irresponsible.

As I put it to one boss of mine - "If everybody owns it, then nobody owns it". Ultimately, there is only one person who owns safe operation - the operator.

We see it in road vehicles. As ABS, airbags, crush zones..... have been added in, many people just drove faster (for specific conditions) to create more spectacular accidents. When I was young, if somebody crashed a car at 60mph, it was often fatal. Today, those crashes are considered survivable.

I still get a chuckle about the book that was popular for a while a few years back - the catch-phrase that it generated was "10,000 hours" being notable. Until that book came out, we didn't know that experience mattered ? :laughing:

Having access to people with decades of hard-earned experience is a golden opportunity - BUT, one has to have the mentality to listen and learn when life presents that value. Otherwise, you go off into Will Roger's quote about Learning, Urination, and Electric Fences......

The general aspect of what I'm on about has been on my mind for quite some time...... I wanted to tie it back to aviation, and went looking for these:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/267280-using-twine-telemetry-2.html

That tech thread drifted over to talking about the Gimli Glider incident. The pilot has final responsibility in aviation, as it should be, IMO. If you transfer nothing else from the aviation world to tractors (you are thinking on your feet OP, don't get me wrong :thumbsup, keep that sole responsibility in mind when operating a tractor. It does not matter what somebody should have placed more prominently in the manual, labeled more clearly on the controls, provided you with training time on...... the tractor operator, or somebody around them, is the one who can very quickly end up dead.

My grandparents knew it so well that I'm sure they never really thought about it - "It's up to ME." BIG period after that. Many things today can nudge us away from that type of thinking.....

I'll also offer this Macleans article on aviation - it articulates more completely than I have some aspects of what has been bugging me about this tech/people's minds drift issue......

Cockpit crisis - Macleans.ca

Rgds, D.

 

[CobyRupert]

Accidents happen and usually come out of nowhere. Or being preoccupied. Then, there's just those cases of "can't fix stupid" as they say. Sometimes I think, as with driving, teaching laws of physics might be much more useful for preventing accidents.

:thumbsup:

No matter how much training, warnings, or no matter how smart or cautious you are, or how much you've thought through all the things that can wrong, Mother Nature is way more imaginative than you! There will always be unexpected (unimagined) dangers. Just by the versatility and wide range of jobs tractors do.

Plus some people are just too stupid to learn.

 

[ovrszd]

I took one semester, then left. The program was 95% livestock, 5% crops, 0% machinery and equipment.

Bruce

Usually designed to best serve the particular farming practices of the area. In cattle Ranching areas the Rancher/Dad doesn't want the AG teacher telling his Son how to grow Lettuce.

 

[JRobyn]

The foot is not terribly painful. Hauling my 60 year old 250 lb. but around on crutches is killing my upper body. I should have pretty good upper body strength soon.

PLEASE do not make your injury and recovery any more painful than it needs to be. Use those crutches the right way!

As a person with a "slipped femoral epiphysis" at 15 yrs old, I was forced to become familiar with crutches and their correct use. Why is it that patients almost NEVER get decent instructions?

You should not ever support your weight with your armpits. There's poor structural strength and soft, tender skin there. The top pad of the crutches should remain at least 1-2in below your armpits. Support your weight with your ARMS and much tougher hands with your elbows locked for strength. "Pinch" the top crutch pad between your upper arm and sides of your chest with just enough pressure to keep it from slipping forwards or back.

Prayers for a speedy and complete recovery.