"It's Easier to Bury a Tradition Than a Child"

[Wayne County Hose]

All of the justifications will be for naught, if there is an accident...TRACTORS have ONE SEAT for a reason...ONE OPERATOR...


And when someone says that oh, I use a seat belt and buckle the kid in with me...What I want you to do, is to lay down on your kid with all your weight over a fenceline and then think INTERNAL INJURIES, because that is what will happen to them if the tractor tips over and you start crushing them under your weight against the seatbelt...and when you say oh, I'd release the seatbelt, what happens if you were to have smacked your head on the ROP and are out cold...

..........and if the dog didn't stop to poop he would have caught the rabbit.

Paul, I really do respect your posts and your opinions. I believe that your intent here was honorable and noble. That being said, when approached with something like this, most people really don't want to hear it. Every farm situation on every tractor with every operator is different. Yes, it is a shame that even one child dies from something like this. But if we eliminate this from being the #1 cause, then we attack the next, and so on down the list. Before you know it, we're all sitting in our houses with football helmets on like a bunch of mental patients scared to even look out the window as everyone knows, meteorites are now the leading cause of death. I don't want, need, or will tolerate a nanny state and that's where this stuff tends to lead, as history shows as fact. I believe that if people are dumb enough to put their fingers under a lawn mower while it's running, they don't deserve to have a hand. If people want to jump from perfectly good airplanes, that's their perogative. And if people want their kids riding with them on their tractor, so be it.

 

[gemini5362]

Walk a mile in a dairy farmer's shoes, then tell him how to operate his equipment.

Wayne I kind of agree with the other poster. You are being pretty one sided here. Unless someone is a dairy farmer they are not capable of having a comment ? I have never lived on a dairy farm. My father lived on farms where they have beef herds. One of my earliest memories is working with my dad plowing fields because we grew our own corn and other grains for the cattle to eat. These were feedlot cattle and I can remember harvesting and making silage. ( although I will admit I was so young I cannot remember it vividly. On the other hand I am now so old that I cannot remember last week vividly) I can remember my dad moving to Abilene and working on a ranch with 1000 acres at just the home spread. . The owner had land everywhere that he owned. When we lived on the feedlot ranch I had uncles that owned many thousands of acres of land and produced wheat. I can remember helping with the harvest and riding on the combines. When we moved to Arkansas my dad raised beef cattle. I grew up with kids that had dairy cattle and I dont remember a lot of difference as far as useage of the tractor goes. I dont live on a working farm now because I have other interests. Are you saying that because I have not lived on a dairy farm I am not qualified to post in this thread ?

 

[Rara Avis]

All accidents have stupidity behind them, period.

I probably have more miles standing on the arms of a 3 point hitch than most of you have on your tractor seat. On a farm, you need to get things done. If you are not a farmer, especially a dairy farmer, don't even bother to comment. I grew up on a dairy farm and still have friends and relatives that own them. Is it safer to have your kid on a 4 wheeler driving down the road to the field? If you say yes, then tell it to the state trooper when he pulls up behind. I'll bet the vast majority of these accidents are kids on the fenders, which is not safe. My wife is an EMT and the overwhelming majority of tractor accidents are morons that buy a tractor and pretend to be a farmer.

Comparing riding the arms of three point hitch to ATVs is a BAD analogy...
A List Of Fallacious Arguments

If you read the threads posted on this very forum...VETERAN FARMER...EXPERIENCED FARMER...et cetera...They are NOT morons pretending...they are farmers who have done something potentially unsafe that this time NAILED them...

I have just stepped away from my volunteer EMT duties at the Fire Department...EMS service period 1978-2007...and in those years I have responded to more than my fair share of fatal and serious injuries as well as the classic "one inch to the left and we wouldn't be talking" incidents...

And the morons were in the minority...the majority of the victims and patients were nice people, who discovered statistical analysis is real, the hard way...

Don't bother to comment???

That is an unfairly-close minded position to take...what is so unique of dairy farming that it defies comment from an outside eye?

"If I drop a wrench on a planet with a positive gravity field, I need not see it fall, nor hear it hit the ground, to know that it has in fact fallen." (Spock - Court Martial)

 

[Rara Avis]

So I'll say it again, particularly in reply to Paul's last reply:



I don't think we can be quite so absolute when it comes to issues of safety. I think there is a big difference between smoking in a fireworks factory and a farm kid hitching a ride on a tractor in order to get work done.

George...in your profession you are familiar with Risk-Benefit Ratio?

What do you think the lawyer for a hospital, where you have privileges, would say if it came to light you were NOT operating within the Standards of Care...how fast do you think it would take for your privileges to be revoked??

 

[charlz]

Some years ago I heard the phrase

"Complacency Kills"

In many of these accidents you can see 1) the person was killed or maimed because they 'didn't know' but 2) it seems in just as many (if not more so) the person knew full well the danger... but they had become complacent. "I've stepped over that spinning pto shaft thousands of times" or whatever.

Society is certainly becoming risk-adverse but risk-aware is what lets you get things done. Doing a constant risk-assessment is what keeps you from getting complacent.

Anything can kill you. I read once that a sudden transition from sleep to awake can trigger a heart attack..... should alarm clocks be outlawed?

 

[Wayne County Hose]

N80- That picture does bother me. Notice I stated that I rode on the 3 point hitch arms.
Paul, the ATV analogy was misunderstood by you. Riding on the fender of a John Deere won't get you in trouble with the law, riding a 4 wheeler on a public road will.
Being a dairy farmer is different from all other forms of farming. Going to the barn every day, holidays included, for at least 2 hours to milk, then going to do your other daily chores, is way different than going out sometime in the morning to throw some hay to the beefers. Then being back in the barn 12 hours after your first milking began to do the evening milking. Dairy farming is recognized as the most demanding form of farming. This is why I say that.
The great majority of tractor accidents around here are the people that buy a tractor and pretend to be a farmer, even if only on the weekends. If that is not the way by you, that is my ignorance. Most of these people are nice people too, can nice people not be morons? I bought a table saw and a pile of oak flooring and proceeded to install. Almost cut my hand off, literally. I, therefore, by my own admission, was a moron. I call it like I see it, myself included.
By saying certain people shouldn't comment, I'm just saying that until you understand the plight of the modern dairy farmer, then I feel your comments have no validity. It's like me commenting on loggers using chain saws. I am not a logger, so I don't comment.
Now I will quote one of my favorite fictional characters which has absolutely nothing to do with this.
"You never know where you're going until you get there, herdy gerdy derdy gerdy der." Daffy Duck to Bugs Bunny in the "Daffy Goes Looney" episode.

 

[flusher]

http://www.childagsafety.org/files/CASN_safety_ad_en.pdf

Tractors are responsible for 41% of the accidental farm deaths of children under 15, yet 4 out of 5 farm children regularly ride tractors with family members. While riding the tractor may be a family tradition, it's easier to bury a tradition than a child.

Childhood Agricultural Safety Network

When my grandkids (11, 9, 6 years of age) visit, they are allowed on the tractor only if their legs are long enough to reach the pedals. That eliminates the 6 year old. Then they drive the tractor themselves with no riders. Works OK for the Kubota B7510HST. Don't let them near the 1964 MF-135.

 

[AlanB]

Paul, I respect your posts, opinions and experience, BUT, let me say that tractors have one seat and one Seat belt in AMERICA, and it (in my opinion) says more about our sue happy society then it says about safety.

I think it is all about drawing lines, and accepting risk.

I let my son Kayak, hunt, shoot rifles, drive tractors, trucks, backhoes, bobcats and motorcycles. If any of that causes injury too him, there will be someone who says I lack common sense.

As I have said before most tractors in Europe come with extra seats, or have them added. I think that is more a reflection of their legal system, and personal accountability, then it says about the safe practices.

 

[Rara Avis]

A tractor cannot stop before running over a thrown rider, no matter how slowly it is going.

Tractor speed Stopping distance How far tractor travels until the average person reacts
(miles per hour).....(feet).................(feet)
02..................... 6....................... 1.5
05.....................12..................... 3.7
10..................... 30...................... 7.3
15..................... 44...................... 11.0
20..................... 64...................... 14.3

 

[N80]

George...in your profession you are familiar with Risk-Benefit Ratio?

Of course. And as I mentioned, most Americans are painfully unaware of such assessments.

What do you think the lawyer for a hospital, where you have privileges, would say if it came to light you were NOT operating within the Standards of Care...how fast do you think it would take for your privileges to be revoked??

Well, that's a many faceted question and probably not as clear cut as you think it is. But that's immaterial. The fact is that I'm not sure how this bears on the current discussion or my previous statements. (You provided the link regarding specious arguments remember.)

Bottom line is, different people have different boundaries. Even Andy, the one who was all about how life is different on the farm, got a little squirmy from the picture I posted. The types of constraints that you would put on a farm family (based on your statements, which have been pretty absolute, would render farm life into a ridiculous OSHA-esque parody of itself.

There is a difference between foolishness and calculated risk and living in a bubble. I've seen all three in action in all walks of life. And if I had to rank the three I'd rank them this way:

1)Calculated risk
2)Foolishness





47)Living in a bubble

I'm at the stage in life where I'm going to let my 16 year old son drive a car on his own. In all likely hood, I never have and never will allow my child to do anything this dangerous. And if you apply your same absolute safety standards to this, or even applied the risk-benefit ratio....with burying a child as a common occurance when it comes to autos...then you'd never let a child you had authority over drive a car. It puts me in mind of Shakespeare's aphorism regarding dying a thousand deaths.