"It's Easier to Bury a Tradition Than a Child"

[turbo36]

But you do, in fact, jump from an aircraft and you do, in fact, go deep under water. I feel quite certain that more people die doing those activities than kids being killed from being a passenger on a tractor. Recreational scuba and sky diving are perfect examples of horrible risk benefit ratios. The risks are high (relative to not jumping out and not going under) and the benefit is......recreation.

I think you are missing Paul's point, yes these can be dangerous activities when you ignore the safety rules but the risk becomes rather small with proper training and a strict adherence to the rules.
I don't think you can compare the decision of a mature informed adult to engage in risky recreational activities using proper training and equipment with the decision of an immature uninformed child to engage in unnecessary risky farm activities.
I grew up on a farm and took my share of risks the same as all of my peers at the time and even when I lost a close friend in 7th grade pulling stumps with a tractor (working with grandpa) we still didn't change our behavior because of the pressure of the adults to "get hard and grow up" these folks were simply in denial of the fact that we were just kids and not really capable of knowing what real danger was.
Now that I'm older and can reflect on the things I did and how lucky I was to out of my youth with just get a few broken bones I have a different perspective of life. I don't see any reason a kid should ride on the wagon draw bar or 3 point to simply save a little time performing their chores. They can walk along side or drive a vehicle of some type if available.

 

[N80]

I don't think you can compare the decision of a mature informed adult to engage in risky recreational activities using proper training and equipment with the decision of an immature uninformed child to engage in unnecessary risky farm activities.

Sure you can. You can compare any forms of risky behavior. He contends that one behavior he does not condone is too risky even to be considered and I contend that he engages in unneccesary behavior that can end with the same result. The common denominator is the result, which is death or injury.

A tractor manual might say don't ride passengers. An airplane manual could equally well say not to exit aircraft while in flight and most humans would agree that doing so involves more risk than they are willing to take. So there is risk involved in both and the risk can be serious.

He, and you, might justify and minimize that risk based on following guidelines and rules. But it doesn't eliminate risk. The farmer with the child worker can have his own set of rules, which may not be printed but are nevertheless vocalized, acknowledged and followed. The fact that they don't follow the rules written by a hand-ringing legal department does not make them invalid.

Further, the activites he enjoys are purely for fun. Life experience and entertainment are virtually the only justification for them. In my example of farm life, the exigencies of that form of existence serve as adequate justification in more minds than just mine.

So yes, the two can easily and rationally be compared. And the point is not really to defend or to attack either one. The point is simply that different people assess risk differently and the fine print in a tractor manual written by lawyers is hardly 'scriptural' in its weight regarding real life.

And I can assure you that even though one of my neices may one day be run over by a tractor, they will never die of suicide or drugs.

And don't get me wrong. I'm a cautious and safety minded guy, probably more so than most. I have a long list of things I won't do with or around a tractor but I do understand that others may have different and valid approaches to many of them.

 

[Rara Avis]

Sure you can. You can compare any forms of risky behavior. He contends that one behavior he does not condone is too risky even to be considered and I contend that he engages in unneccesary behavior that can end with the same result. The common denominator is the result, which is death or injury.

A tractor manual might say don't ride passengers. An airplane manual could equally well say not to exit aircraft while in flight and most humans would agree that doing so involves more risk than they are willing to take. So there is risk involved in both and the risk can be serious.

He, and you, might justify and minimize that risk based on following guidelines and rules. But it doesn't eliminate risk. The farmer with the child worker can have his own set of rules, which may not be printed but are nevertheless vocalized, acknowledged and followed. The fact that they don't follow the rules written by a hand-ringing legal department does not make them invalid.

Further, the activites he enjoys are purely for fun. Life experience and entertainment are virtually the only justification for them. In my example of farm life, the exigencies of that form of existence serve as adequate justification in more minds than just mine.

So yes, the two can easily and rationally be compared. And the point is not really to defend or to attack either one. The point is simply that different people assess risk differently and the fine print in a tractor manual written by lawyers is hardly 'scriptural' in its weight regarding real life.

And I can assure you that even though one of my neices may one day be run over by a tractor, they will never die of suicide or drugs.

And don't get me wrong. I'm a cautious and safety minded guy, probably more so than most. I have a long list of things I won't do with or around a tractor but I do understand that others may have different and valid approaches to many of them.

Do a lot of people die a year from skydiving?
No. To be honest, on average 27 people a year die from skydiving. Mind you, that is out of over 3.2 million skydives a year in the U.S. alone. To break it down, Met-Life Insurance did an actuarial study that broke down high-risk activities in to a "1 in" ratio. 1 in 5,000 people die in car accidents. 1 in 350,000 die skydiving. Therefore, you are 70 times safer jumping out of an airplane than you are getting in a car and driving to the corner store...And I don't demand that a minor jump out of a plane because its a tradition...

What are most deaths caused from?
Most deaths occur under a fully functional and open canopy.
Hard to believe but it's true. Even more shocking is that by far, most of those are "expert" skydivers with a "D" or Expert Skydiver License. You see, with our new high-performance canopies, we can fly, turn and land them like gliders. Due to advancements in materials and canopy construction, canopies have gotten smaller which also means faster. These "expert" canopy flyers will make a sharp turn, gaining speed, right before landing. Unfortunately, sometimes these turns are made to low and the skydiver is literally slammed into the ground. What is truly sad is that it did not have to happen. It is what we call "Pilot Error". Simply put, it is the same as if a pilot, flying an airplane over the runway at 100 ft, did a nose dive to land his plane.

 

[N80]

Do a lot of people die a year from skydiving?
No.

So 27 deaths a year occuring as a result of a hobby/thrill seeking is not a lot? Seems utterly senseless to me. What a waste of human life.

Therefore, you are 70 times safer jumping out of an airplane than you are getting in a car and driving to the corner store.

This type of tortured logic is why Americans have such a hard time assessing risk. Both of your stats may be true. But they are not related. Human activity is not restricted to riding in a car or jumping from a plane.

Paul, the issue here is no longer one of risk assessment. The issue is one or two people telling everyone else what practices represent acceptable risk and what does not. And then those same people (you) being unwilling to accept similar judgements regarding activities that they (you) enjoy.

It is your unwillingness to accept 'different strokes for different folks' that is at issue.

 

[RobJ]

But, we are both buckled in with the one lap belt. He ain't going no where.

jb

Yeah I figured someone would comment on this. I think Paul makes a good point on this one...it's the same way in cars to IMO.

TO me just about every tractor here...mine included it to small for any passenger, large or small. The tractors I paired up were 100-120hp Deeres with a nice size platform and a huge fender. We had good grips!!

 

[RobJ]

So 27 deaths a year occuring as a result of a hobby/thrill seeking is not a lot? Seems utterly senseless to me. What a waste of human life.



This type of tortured logic is why Americans have such a hard time assessing risk. Both of your stats may be true. But they are not related. Human activity is not restricted to riding in a car or jumping from a plane.

Paul, the issue here is no longer one of risk assessment. The issue is one or two people telling everyone else what practices represent acceptable risk and what does not. And then those same people (you) being unwilling to accept similar judgements regarding activities that they (you) enjoy.

It is your unwillingness to accept 'different strokes for different folks' that is at issue.

IMO it's all a numbers thing. 27 jumper deaths out of how many jumps a year? Deaths in a car vs. how many trips. Airline flights with how many crashes.

There is risk in everything, just depends on what you want to do and how much fun you want to have!!

 

[N80]

Right. The better statistic would be what are your lifetime odds of being killed while driving to the corner store vs your lifetime odds of being killed skydiving (if you do it regularly).

But still, we're talking about kids on tractors, not people jumping out of planes or driving to the 7-Eleven.

As someone said, maybe Twain: there are lies, then there are dam{n} lies and then there are statistics.

Bottom line is, if Paul, or even his kids, wish to sky dive, I'm fine with that. I don't want to do it. I don't want to accept that specific risk for my own reasons. But I'm not going to suggest that Paul is reckless or foolish to go sky diving, even with his kid. If its a risk he will accept, then fine, that's his business and, as he stated, the risk is reasonbably low.

On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend that people carry kids on a tractor, particulalry if there is no reason to do so other than joy riding. But I'm still not going to say it should never be done. Sure the risk is there. But the fact is, no one can tell us how much. The data isn't there. And it probably isn't there because it does not constitute a significant enough level of morbidity or mortaility to make it onto the radar of monitored risk. Low, in other words.

I'd love to know the actual number of minors killed because they were riding on a tractor with an adult. I'd like to see how many of those were working vs playing. I'd like to see how many minors are killed on tractors that they were operating alone. I'll bet all of these numbers are 'low' and I'll bet the third (operating alone) number is higher. And I'll also bet that if anyone suggested that a minor never be able to operate a tractor at all, there would be howls of protest here.

And to put things in better perspective I'd like to see how many kids are killed on bicycles. How about legally riding a motor cycle with an adult? How about dirt bikes? How about 4 wheelers, either alone or with an adult? All are widely accepted practices that likely have much higher risk than being a passenger on a tractor.

 

[RobJ]

Yep,

I try not to get in the middle of a parent and child...or worse..a grand parent and a grandchild!!

 

[Rara Avis]

Right. The better statistic would be what are your lifetime odds of being killed while driving to the corner store vs your lifetime odds of being killed skydiving (if you do it regularly).

But still, we're talking about kids on tractors, not people jumping out of planes or driving to the 7-Eleven.

As someone said, maybe Twain: there are lies, then there are dam{n} lies and then there are statistics.

Bottom line is, if Paul, or even his kids, wish to sky dive, I'm fine with that. I don't want to do it. I don't want to accept that specific risk for my own reasons. But I'm not going to suggest that Paul is reckless or foolish to go sky diving, even with his kid. If its a risk he will accept, then fine, that's his business and, as he stated, the risk is reasonbably low.

On the other hand, I wouldn't recommend that people carry kids on a tractor, particulalry if there is no reason to do so other than joy riding. But I'm still not going to say it should never be done. Sure the risk is there. But the fact is, no one can tell us how much. The data isn't there. And it probably isn't there because it does not constitute a significant enough level of morbidity or mortaility to make it onto the radar of monitored risk. Low, in other words.

I'd love to know the actual number of minors killed because they were riding on a tractor with an adult. I'd like to see how many of those were working vs playing. I'd like to see how many minors are killed on tractors that they were operating alone. I'll bet all of these numbers are 'low' and I'll bet the third (operating alone) number is higher. And I'll also bet that if anyone suggested that a minor never be able to operate a tractor at all, there would be howls of protest here.

And to put things in better perspective I'd like to see how many kids are killed on bicycles. How about legally riding a motor cycle with an adult? How about dirt bikes? How about 4 wheelers, either alone or with an adult? All are widely accepted practices that likely have much higher risk than being a passenger on a tractor.

EXCUSE ME....YOU were the one who started commenting on skydiving...NOT ME

And you are the one who supported the idea that riders on a tractor were NOT DANGEROUS...

 

[lincolnvt]

Hey guys:
Have been following along with this post and I just wanted to say that some great points have been made. I appreciate the time people are taking to formulate arguments and contribute to the discussion. Don't fall into the trap of letting a debate/discussion become personal. Keep up the good work you guys.

Cheers,
Brad