Yea, I need to get the bottom end opened up but need to get it on the stand first. But... I'm in the middle of a major remodel on the house... so my weekend time for toys is limited (by respect to my wife). I really need to stay focused on the house. You married guys will understand this...she wants her house back. It came up on eBay... did the "buy it now" thing... and went and picked it up. But my curiosity would not let me leave it alone... so I pulled the head. I was told it had swallowed a valve...
Its ugly... might be a boat anchor... but
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Yea, I need to get the bottom end opened up but need to get it on the stand first. But... I'm in the middle of a major remodel on the house... so my weekend time for toys is limited (by respect to my wife). I really need to stay focused on the house. You married guys will understand this...she wants her house back. It came up on eBay... did the "buy it now" thing... and went and picked it up. But my curiosity would not let me leave it alone... so I pulled the head. I was told it had swallowed a valve...
I don't *think* the 2011s are sleeved. The passages you see surrounding the upper cylinder and combustion chamber are for engine oil for cooling. When you go to price/order replacement parts, you'll need to know how many notches the head gasket has and such. Your service manual will explain it all in detail, but when the short block is assembled, the piston's protrusion above the deck needs to be measured so that the proper thickness gasket can be installed. In one corner of the gasket, there'll be a set of notches for identification....usually one, two, or three notches. We've had the heads off of several Deutzs, and usually just use the original gasket for reference.
Not sure why the valve let go, I've never seen that occur on one...BUT...the Deutz is an interference engine. I have seen LOTS of them have the valves hit the pistons when the timing belt fails. Deutz built the engine with the pushrod as the weakest link though, so when the belt breaks and the valves *meet* the pistons...the pushrods bend. The pushrods are rigid enough to do their normal job, and no more. I've gone on a few service calls over the years, replaced a broken timing belt, and then...bent the pushrods "straight" again to get the machine up and running. Is it "correct" to straighten out a bent pushrod and re-use it? Nope. But sometimes you work with what you have to work with. Many people pooh-pooh the timing belt setup, and really pooh-pooh the bent pushrods issue if the belt lets go. The thing is, Deutz recommends belt replacement at 3000 hours. It's fairly easy and inexpensive to do...so it's hard for me to be sympathetic when owners/users let 'em go and then complain when it fails at 4-5000 hours and it costs them more money.
Pull the timing belt cover off and examine the belt. If the engine is still in time, you can replace the belt by holding everything in place and installing a new belt. If anything is out of time, there's a set of timing pins that are used to line up and hold the crank and cam. They aren't cheap, I paid $80 a few years ago...but you can find them on eBay. Here's an example:
Timing Belt Installation Tools/Pins for DEUTZ F3M2011 | eBay
Deutz parts, (like any other diesel parts), can be expensive especially if you're shopping at a dealer. We buy lots of stuff from Memo-Omega in Texas. Normal "stock parts" we like to keep on hand like the timing sets and gaskets cost about 50% less than what a local dealer charges. Parts from Memo won't necessarily arrive in a Deutz box with a Deutz label, but if it's a head gasket, (for example), it will show up in a package labeled by the gasket manufacturer. If it's a timing set, it will arrive in a box from the belt manufacturer. So I guess if money is an issue, they're definitely worth contacting. If you're the type that would only be satisfied by a Deutz box with a Deutz logo, then....maybe not. We've had good luck with them, and our rental fleet probably has 30-40 of the 1011 and 2011 engines.
Here's a link to Memo:
Memo Corporation - Home
For what it's worth, I wouldn't spend any time or money trying to fix that block or head either, but I'm in a different situation. The stuff needs to be up and running now or it isn't generating revenue...
Not sure why the valve let go, I've never seen that occur on one...BUT...the Deutz is an interference engine. I have seen LOTS of them have the valves hit the pistons when the timing belt fails. Deutz built the engine with the pushrod as the weakest link though, so when the belt breaks and the valves *meet* the pistons...the pushrods bend. The pushrods are rigid enough to do their normal job, and no more. I've gone on a few service calls over the years, replaced a broken timing belt, and then...bent the pushrods "straight" again to get the machine up and running. Is it "correct" to straighten out a bent pushrod and re-use it? Nope. But sometimes you work with what you have to work with. Many people pooh-pooh the timing belt setup, and really pooh-pooh the bent pushrods issue if the belt lets go. The thing is, Deutz recommends belt replacement at 3000 hours. It's fairly easy and inexpensive to do...so it's hard for me to be sympathetic when owners/users let 'em go and then complain when it fails at 4-5000 hours and it costs them more money.
Pull the timing belt cover off and examine the belt. If the engine is still in time, you can replace the belt by holding everything in place and installing a new belt. If anything is out of time, there's a set of timing pins that are used to line up and hold the crank and cam. They aren't cheap, I paid $80 a few years ago...but you can find them on eBay. Here's an example:
Timing Belt Installation Tools/Pins for DEUTZ F3M2011 | eBay
Deutz parts, (like any other diesel parts), can be expensive especially if you're shopping at a dealer. We buy lots of stuff from Memo-Omega in Texas. Normal "stock parts" we like to keep on hand like the timing sets and gaskets cost about 50% less than what a local dealer charges. Parts from Memo won't necessarily arrive in a Deutz box with a Deutz label, but if it's a head gasket, (for example), it will show up in a package labeled by the gasket manufacturer. If it's a timing set, it will arrive in a box from the belt manufacturer. So I guess if money is an issue, they're definitely worth contacting. If you're the type that would only be satisfied by a Deutz box with a Deutz logo, then....maybe not. We've had good luck with them, and our rental fleet probably has 30-40 of the 1011 and 2011 engines.
Here's a link to Memo:
Memo Corporation - Home
For what it's worth, I wouldn't spend any time or money trying to fix that block or head either, but I'm in a different situation. The stuff needs to be up and running now or it isn't generating revenue...
Thanks you brokenot.
I really appreciated your long reply and information. I had stumbled on Memo's web page in my information searches... and sent off for info/quote on the more common things one would need for a rebuild. Now he did list a liner... but at 28 dollars and change I thought it a mistake. I'll be getting it on the stand shortly and pulling the pan. So will see if its really lined or not. If it is, its wet. the casting cracks grain of the metal is uniform all the way across, so its either block or a bottom held wet liner... lateral forces have to be held at the bottom as the top just seals down to the head gasket.
I wondered about the belt when I first started researching after I bought it but before I picked it up. Was a bit surprised to see Deutz design that way. Boy yea... talk about an interference engine!!! Likely has less than about a 16th inch between the valve heads and the top of the piston at TDC! I looked at the push rods... some have been bent evidently in the past... slight "s" shapes to several, but these pistons do not show sign of contact... so it wasn't this build. Very little ridge... but who knows how many hours are on it total. I can't imagine reusing those rods... but hey... some people can't imagine me using much of anything on this engine either. I figured on a new belt just on principle when I saw it was designed with one. I will not own another car with one.
I'll get the head magnafluzed and see. I can clean it up on the mill and at least remove the high spots... but by rights I should likely replace it. There is no hurry...so maybe i can find a used one somewhere.
Thank you again.
Dave
I really appreciated your long reply and information. I had stumbled on Memo's web page in my information searches... and sent off for info/quote on the more common things one would need for a rebuild. Now he did list a liner... but at 28 dollars and change I thought it a mistake. I'll be getting it on the stand shortly and pulling the pan. So will see if its really lined or not. If it is, its wet. the casting cracks grain of the metal is uniform all the way across, so its either block or a bottom held wet liner... lateral forces have to be held at the bottom as the top just seals down to the head gasket.
I wondered about the belt when I first started researching after I bought it but before I picked it up. Was a bit surprised to see Deutz design that way. Boy yea... talk about an interference engine!!! Likely has less than about a 16th inch between the valve heads and the top of the piston at TDC! I looked at the push rods... some have been bent evidently in the past... slight "s" shapes to several, but these pistons do not show sign of contact... so it wasn't this build. Very little ridge... but who knows how many hours are on it total. I can't imagine reusing those rods... but hey... some people can't imagine me using much of anything on this engine either. I figured on a new belt just on principle when I saw it was designed with one. I will not own another car with one.
I'll get the head magnafluzed and see. I can clean it up on the mill and at least remove the high spots... but by rights I should likely replace it. There is no hurry...so maybe i can find a used one somewhere.
Thank you again.
Dave
sandman2234
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If it is a non sleeve engine, what keeps you from making it a sleeved engine? In fact, what would keep you from making 3 sleeves and dropping piston sizes to match each other so the lope isn't as bad? Just a thought. I have seen gas engines sleeved when the cylinder was scored, so why not a diesel?
David from jax
David from jax
Nothing. The lope is if I just left out one cylinder and went with three on a 4 cyl crank. Like a miss, but not quite as bad since there would be no compression stroke on the blanked off cylinder.
But if I had to build a sleeve out of something not quite as strong as the cast... I was thinking of using a slightly smaller bore. Be almost no detectable lope then. Three would be a their 94mm bore... one at say about 90mm.
But this is all speculation... I can't stand it. I'm going to open up the bottom end tomorrow and see once and for all how its designed.
Will let you all know.
Dave
That's not unusual on these actually. When the valves and pistons do come together, they hit almost dead flat. The pistons usually don't get indented or anything. There'll be a circle imprinted in the carbon coating the piston top...and that's about it. Once in a while, I'll see one that has had the belt break when the engine was running at high speed, and then the pushrods will be bent and the rocker arm mounting bolts will be deflected sideways also. Not enough to see at first, but it becomes apparent when they're being unscrewed as the bolts and rocker clamps wobble. Then once you get them out you can see the bend clearly as you look at the threads....
Didn't notice anything on the bolts when I pulled the rockers... but I'll look closely before reinstalling. Actually on second thought... if it was a timing issue... I'll just replace them if they had the chance of being overstressed.
Thanks.
Thanks.
OK all... here's the verdict... its basically dead.
-Non-Sleeved... not good. Not sure it can be made to accept one or not... **** tight to the web for the main bearings (see photo).
-Timing belt is in good condition... properly tensioned... expect its still in time... and NOT the cause.
-it just sucked a valve due to valve stem failure at high rpm. Too bad, its clean as a whistle in there... not much time on these cylinders. I've seen much worse.
So the block options are;
-modify the block and build a sleeve... maybe, but my mill (1935 Van Norman #12) is not likely able to handle that. The lathe can turn a liner (1920 Hendey 14x5), but I may have to have the block machined at a machine shop.
-find a good bare block... and rebuild from there...
-bite the bullet and buy a short block... not sure the current need warrants that money...
Head options are:
-try to fix this one up... its a maybe...
-find a used head and rebuild it...
- buy a recon head...
Probable best option... make a mooring anchor out of it and keep looking for a 40-60 hp small diesel engine for the boat... But one can not use a "M" engine... anything destined for Marine has at least multiplier of 5. For Aviation its at least a multiplier of 10 (although at least this has real reasons)... Marine doesn't, other than greed.
Thank you all for your information and comments... now its back to remodeling the house... winter's coming and all I have in the windows is the alum storm window... rebuilding the 104 year old double hungs.
Later all... Dave
-Non-Sleeved... not good. Not sure it can be made to accept one or not... **** tight to the web for the main bearings (see photo).
-Timing belt is in good condition... properly tensioned... expect its still in time... and NOT the cause.
-it just sucked a valve due to valve stem failure at high rpm. Too bad, its clean as a whistle in there... not much time on these cylinders. I've seen much worse.
So the block options are;
-modify the block and build a sleeve... maybe, but my mill (1935 Van Norman #12) is not likely able to handle that. The lathe can turn a liner (1920 Hendey 14x5), but I may have to have the block machined at a machine shop.
-find a good bare block... and rebuild from there...
-bite the bullet and buy a short block... not sure the current need warrants that money...
Head options are:
-try to fix this one up... its a maybe...
-find a used head and rebuild it...
- buy a recon head...
Probable best option... make a mooring anchor out of it and keep looking for a 40-60 hp small diesel engine for the boat... But one can not use a "M" engine... anything destined for Marine has at least multiplier of 5. For Aviation its at least a multiplier of 10 (although at least this has real reasons)... Marine doesn't, other than greed.
Thank you all for your information and comments... now its back to remodeling the house... winter's coming and all I have in the windows is the alum storm window... rebuilding the 104 year old double hungs.
Later all... Dave
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Travelover
Elite Member
Maybe you can part it out and sell the pieces on EBay.
I may later on, but since time is of no consequence on this potential project, it will just sit in the shop for a while. I will research sleeving this before I totally give up.
From all evidence, I think some one went through this from a belt failure not very long ago... either short blocked it or rebuilt this block... but didn't examine the valves good enough (although one may not have been able to see much). Valve head is gone, broke off the stem, the bent stem was still in the guide... but the stem was also broken at the base of the keeper... hard to tell which end let loose first. But several slightly "S"d push rods indicate a potenial prior interference. Engine is almost clean enough to eat off inside... one can see that in the photo. No ridge. Honing is gone though. Rod bearings like new. I'll research this winter... likely finish stripping this block and take up town and let the machinist tell me what he can or can't do with it. It will just sit in the shop until then. Maybe I'll find another 2011 by then, and use the best from both. I've done that before on a 1950 Minneapolis Moline "U".
Dave.