JD 1050 starter? wiring? operator?

[sarge1572]

I have an '84 1050, 4x4. It won't crank. I have both levers in neutral, shifter and hi-lo range, and hit the key and the starter goes clunk. I have enough juice, the battery reads 12.84 volts. I've even run 2 batterys thinking this one may be bad, but nothing. I can hear the solenoid throw the gear out, but then nothing, it doesn't crank, not even the typical click click click from a low or dying battery.

I know the solution is something simple but I've gone brain dead!!

It ran and started fine the LAST time I used it. How do you jump the starter to bypass the neutral switches on this starter?

Anyone with a fresh brain?

(this model has the two neutral switches, one on the gear shifter and the other on the hi-lo shirter and does not have the clutch switch. when either shifter is engaged nothing happens at all, not even the clunk from the starter.)

thanks
Jeff

Thanks
Jeff

 

[banjodunn]

G'day on the top of the starter you have two heavier bolts one the main battery lead the other the feed wire into the starter if you are very careful you can short these two together and the starter should spin over but remember you have NO safety switches in the system please make sure that all gear levers are in neutral your problem may also be the starter jammed in gear against the ring gear you might want to try turning the motor over by hand usually in reverse rotation to normal normally you dont have to turn it very far and you should be able to hear it disengage (clunk) good luck but once again BE CAREFUL

 

[milkman]

The first thing I would try is to manually turn the engine backward a small amount to make sure the starter gear is not bound up with the ring gear on the flywheel. You could also loosen the mounting bolts for the starter, back them out about three turns and wiggle the starter, if it is jammed, either will break it loose.

 

[sarge1572]

Milkman and BanjoDunn

Thank you both. I will try the bolts first. If that doesn't do the trick I'll jump it.

The haze is starting to clear!!!! I'll let you know if I'm either successful, or if I only manage to set it on fire!!!

Thanks again
Jeff

 

[dqdave1]

Can you turn the engine over? I would try to move the crank to make sure engine is not bound up.

 

[sarge1572]

Dave, over the last month or so I've had more trouble starting it. I bought it cheap and have been working on it as time (read money $$$$) permits. Mostly cosmetic, needs brakes, and now this. At first I thought there might be a dead spot on the starter because if I tried starting it 2 or 3 times (it would just click but not the ratching sound you get with a dead battery) and usually start on the second or 3rd try. Now it just clicks. The engine ran fine, nothing has bound up in the engine, the trans and transfer case shift without difficulty and worked fine when it ran last.

I can't move the tractor because the loader and box scraper are on the ground.

I'll throw a wrench on the front pulley and try that, and/or loosen the starter and try that as well. Worse case scenario it's easier to take the starter to the dealer than it is to take the whole tractor. The starter will fit in the trunk!!

I have juice at the starter. I have to check to make sure I have 12V at the switch and back to the starter. I'm pretty confident I do.

Thanks for the input. I'll try all 3 suggestions tomorrow. It will probably be something stupid like a dirty connection from the battery to the starter!!!

Thanks again for all of your suggestions.
Jeff

 

[Leejohn]

If are hearing the solenoid kick the gear in, then you can forget the safety switchs. I do think there is a switch for the PTO, it seems like it was at the very end of the lever for the PTO, but could be wrong.
It's the solenoid or the starter. Check for 12V on the starter lug at the starter not the solenoid. If you have 12V there when trying to start, its the starter. If no 12V at starter when trying to start, then it's the solenoid.
You can take the solenoid apart and clean the contacts, real easy to do.

 

[tommu56]

Check the battery voltage when you hit the key and see what it is your battery might have 12v but not enough current.

Then put your meter on the big starter terminal that go's to the soleonid and hit the key again to see if the starter is getting voltage.

The solenoid might pull in but there is a brass or copper disk that closes across the to big terminals on the starter to carry the "juice" to the starter and some times they go bad ( time for a new one at that point)

tom

 

[kebo]

Check the battery voltage when you hit the key and see what it is your battery might have 12v but not enough current.

Then put your meter on the big starter terminal that go's to the soleonid and hit the key again to see if the starter is getting voltage.

The solenoid might pull in but there is a brass or copper disk that closes across the to big terminals on the starter to carry the "juice" to the starter and some times they go bad ( time for a new one at that point)

tom

I think that tommu is closest to the answer. The reason I say that is because I had a 750 (the smaller brother of the 1050) and it got to where it was doing VERY similar to yours. I checked everything possible but couldn't fix it. I had the starter off twice myself and tore it down and cleaned it, but still it did the same thing. Most of the time it would click, but not spin over. In warmer weather it wasn't as bad. In cold weather it was a bear to start.

Here's a REAL big clue: Turn the key switch on, and make sure you hear the starter solenoid click. Still holding key switch on, take a BIG hammer and tap right on top of the soleniod several times (but not hard enough to break it). If it magically engages and spins the starter motor over, then you HAVE the same problem as I did. A very experienced starter/alternator shop owner told me he could fix it with a workaround. He added a relay onto the solenoid on my starter.

This relay energizes when you turn the key switch over to start and it jumpers the 12V heavy current going to the starter motor over to the solenoid. This extra boost of juice gives it more oomph to slam hard and engage the contacts to make the starter motor spin over. In technial terms, the solenoid wasn't getting enough voltage. There is resistance in every connection from the battery +, to the starter, and back to the battery -. The resistance in all these connections adds up to a sizable voltage drops which will limit the current getting to the solenoid. All these voltage drops are due to poor/bad connection points and slightly undersized wire in the whole battery/starter/keyswitch circuit.

The shop owner said it was common in other John Deere's that he had seen in his years of experience. I can attest to the fact that after he added that relay to mine, the problem went away and IT NEVER FAILED to crank right up after that. I sold that 750 last year and keep in touch with it's new owner. He says it starts EVERY single time now. If your problem turns out to be the same as what I had with that 750, try the relay deal and see if it helps. All you need is a standard 12v starter relay, very common on older Ford cars/trucks and very cheap. If you need some wiring assistance, I can help with that too. Good luck and hope you get it solved. Now I got to rest my fingers after typing all this!!!

Keith

 

[ScottAR]

What Kebo said...

Low or spotty voltage on the "go" wire to the solenoid. My 1050 did the same thing...

Put a relay in the starting circuit.

 

[d1king]

Believe you will find that J.D. has a kit AM107421 with the low boltage starter relay for this type problem. I bought one for my Kubota b2400 and have not had a single problem since. (Kubota wanted app $640.00 for starter and ig. switch.) Seem to be a problem with cumulative voltage drop across system thru safety switches as system ages. Might go to Kubota operating and repair and search for 'b2400 starter problem'. Kubmech had a great thread on this dated June 2001. Might be something to try. Good Luck.

 

[sarge1572]

I think John Wayne is credited with saying, Life is hard, it's even harder when you're stupid!

I'm here to tell you he's right and apply for the poster boy position. whoa!!

You can jump to the end if you don't want to read all the BS, but this is how my day with a Deere went:

Disconnected the battery, of course, removed the starter. Listen intently for a click or clunk indicating the starter gear might have been stuck in the flywheel. Nothing. I didn't take anything apart, but noted that the spring had adequate tension to pull the starter gear back into the starter, IF it actually engaged! Nothing loose, no rattles, so I put it back on. Hooked the battery up and I'll be damned if it didn't start on the first go. I was happy as a clam!! I let it run for a few minutes, shut it off and hoping against hope I turned the key to start it again. Clunk! 2 or 3 tries, same clunk. I checked the voltage at the battery (12.54) and to the starter (12.54). I thought perhaps there was a poor connection so I disconnected the battery, removed the cable from the starter, cleaned the heck out of them both, reattached to whole enchilada and..... started on the first try. Once again I'm a happy guy, but knowing that my John Wayne moment hasn't arrived I tempted fate once again. Shut it off, waited a few minutes, gave the key a twist... clunk. crap!

Back to the computer and re-read what the experts said paying particular attention to what Kebo and Tommu had to say. I hooked my meter up to the battery (12.54 volts) turned the key, clunk, the battery dropped to 11.7 volts, enough to start. I then took the meter and hooked it to both sides of the starter, 12.54 volts. Twisted the key, heard the anticipated clunk, and watched the meter go down, bottoming out at 5.54 volts.

While the wiring is in decent condition, 25 years has to take it's toll.

Tomorrow I'm driving up to the JD dealer for the AM107421 wiring regulator kit (Thank you D1King for the part number)!! I'd use the Ford option but this one sounds like it has all the parts and something I need; follow the dots instructions with pictures!!

The saga continues.

Thank you to all of you very much for sharing your experience and especially your wisdom. You've saved me from violating the Fire Code and finding out the answer to: How big ARE the flames from a JD 1050 when it's fully engulfed!

Thanks again
Jeff

 

[kebo]

Jeff, did you try the "test" I mentioned??? If you haven't installed the relay kit yet, try cranking the tractor and the next time you hear the starter go "clunk" hold the key in the start position, take a hammer (or maybe a big rubber mallet), and hit the solenoid a few times (hard but not hard enough to break anything). If it cranks up after hitting it a few times, then that's what the I had 750 was doing.

Let us know how it cranks after you get that relay kit installed. I can promise you that if it doesn't fix your problem entirely, it will surely help make the situation better cause it surely can't hurt getting a little more voltage and current to the solenoid. Good luck!

Keith

 

[sarge1572]

Keith,

I did try tapping the solenoid and forgot to mention it. It was unsuccessful in getting it to start, not sure if I was a little to timid with the technique but I did tap from several different directions at varying intensities with the key in the start position.

I have the tech manual and may take LeeJohn's advice and take the whole thing apart to see where that may lead. If it's something a simple as poor contacts, etc, I'll tackle the repair or send it out for rebuild.
I think I mentioned that the wiring is decent, but 25 years has to take it's toll. Also the tractor sat for close to 3 years before I bought it. It started right up when I bought it but since then I split it to install a new 2 stage clutch assembly, bearing etc. in it, removing all of the wiring from the front half. I also pulled the cowling from around the gauges and steering column to inspect the wiring and remove all of the "stuff" packed in there from rats that it was hard to remove. There are a few wired chewed in half (I wonder what's in them that rats find so irresistible) and a few more that are missing the sheathing around the wire in places. None that go to the starter or the switches. The rats nest and filth were packed into the dash so tight I had to pry it out with a screwdriver. The dirt and "stuff" has to be packed down into the connections etc. so I either have to rewire sections of it or at the very least make sure the contacts are all cleaned up. Now that I have all of this exposed and easier access I will test voltage through out the circuit and see if it's something as "simple" as cleaning up or eliminating at plug-in connection.

It's a good thing for me I'm not relying on this to do any real work! I hope to have it up and running (again) before summer.

Kebo, If you still have the info on the wire around and addition of the regulator I'd appreciate any information. It seems the John Deere kit that D1King gave me the part number for may not be available any more. Neither of the local dealers have it and weren't forthcoming in whether or not it could be ordered. I'll continue to follow up on that as the listed price online from JD is $25, worth the time trouble and energy to make one, plus it is supposed to come with wiring instructions, if it has pictures I might be able to muddle my way through the install!!

I'll keep you posted on how I'm progressing.

Thanks again for everyones input.

Jeff

 

[d1king]

Try a search for 'B2400 starter problem' and see Kubmech comments on page 2 (7-15-04) on how to wire, and also search 'b2400 starter problem finally solved' and see a picture on how it goes on. Also, Van Wall Equipment in Olathe, Ks. has 2 on hand ( had 6 app 4 weeks ago when I got mine), If you call at 913-397-6009 they can ship out. Comes with wiring instruction, etc. took me about 10 minutes to install. part no AM107421. If you have access to a fax I can fax the wiring diagram from mine if you need it. PM me if you need, I'll give you my cell no. if I can help. No guarentee this will fix, but its what I would try next.

 

[jimmysisson]

You didn't disturb a battery-to-frame ground, or an engine-to-frame ground did you? This sounds like an intermittent connection. That could be at external wiring ends or inside the solenoid as has been mentioned. Possibly you can get the solenoid apart (don't quote me) and just clean the contacts? Wires don't get thinner with age (except battery leads from corrosion) so I'd be more suspicious of a switch (solenoid) or ground.
Good luck, keep us informed. Sounds more irritating than expensive.
Jim

 

[kebo]

Keith,

Kebo, If you still have the info on the wire around and addition of the regulator I'd appreciate any information. It seems the John Deere kit that D1King gave me the part number for may not be available any more. Neither of the local dealers have it and weren't forthcoming in whether or not it could be ordered. I'll continue to follow up on that as the listed price online from JD is $25, worth the time trouble and energy to make one, plus it is supposed to come with wiring instructions, if it has pictures I might be able to muddle my way through the install!!

I'll keep you posted on how I'm progressing.

Thanks again for everyones input.

Jeff

Jeff, it looks like d1king posted the way to search for info you need on this forum. I suggest you try that first. If you still can't find a wiring diagram, let me know and I will send it to you. The hook up is really pretty simple. Keep us posted on it.

Keith

 

[d1king]

Jeff, I'm going to try to send you Kubmech's descripton, of problem and fix. Had a problem doing this before, so may not go thru.
Re: B2400 STARTER PROBLEM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank, heres the bottom line..Power flows from your ignition switch through your PTO, neutral and clutch safety switches.
To the starter solenoid (black/white wire??) When all the switches and battery etc. are new there is very little resistance.
After you get some time and some age in these components resistance builds up and eventually will cause a voltage drop by the time it gets to the starter solenoid. This voltage drop will vary according to temperature, humidity and other factors.
That's why some times it'll work and other times it wont. The starter solenoid needs approx. 9 volts to fully engage. Anything less and it wont fully make contact to send power to run the starter motor. Yes it will click, but needs just a little more "oomph" to fully seat on the contacts and allow the starter motor portion to run. Now instead of replacing all the components in the system to reduce the voltage drop. What you need to do is install a starter relay. Most, if not all modern machines have this feature now because of this very problem. Some companies figured this out a bit sooner than others and came up with a pre-wired relay kit with instructions (John Deere and Scag I know for sure). Now some guys like to do things on there own and run down to NAPA and get a regular low voltage relay or a good old fashion starter solenoid, wire it up themselves and fix this problem, which works just fine. However the good old fashion starter solenoids still need close to 9 volts to engage and still causes some problems. The low voltage relay is the best way to go.. I think it will work with as low as 4 volts. In my experience the easiest way to go, is to install the JD kit part #
AM107421. It's, like I said, prewired and comes with instructions and it's around 15-20 bucks. Basically the way it works is... The red wire goes to the Battery terminal of the starter, the black wire goes to ground. You plug the black/white lead that would normally go to your starter to the male purple connector of the relay and the female connector purple lead to the starter. I have solved this "mysterious" problem many, many times on all brands and models of older machines with this kit. Everyone has given great suggestions for making sure your basic electrical system is sound and in proper working order. Most times when all else checks out and I have verified that voltage to the starter solenoid is a little low or questionable, installing this kit solves the problem at least 99% of the time. I'd be willing to bet it will work in your case as well. On rare occasions I have torn down the starter to find the contacts bad in the solenoid when this kit would not solve the problem. However for the price of the kit it's more than worth a shot in my opinion..................

Looks like it made it made it- Don

 

[EV59]

In the past I sold many 50 series tractors and the starting problem was definetley a problem. The start relay fix will solve the problem. The relay was actually the original kit used on the old 116 lawn tractors that had the same problem...

 

[banjodunn]

G'day Jeff what is the condition of the battery terminals where the lead goes in the back if it has got the moulded type of terminals cut them off and put some new terminals on, the moulded type are notorious for corroding in the back and you can't see it, it sounds a bit like your problem as you say when you disturbed the terminals it started the relay idea is a good thing to do we do this alot on headers (combine harvesters to you lot over there ) as there is such a long distance from the key to starter a pretty easy fit up i would not go to JD for it though your local auto parts store should have all you need (i.e 30amp 12volt 4 pin relay, roll of wire and some solderless terminals) the hook up is fairly straight forward i'm sure you would find a thread somewhere on TBN on how to wire up a relay. If all this fails you may be looking at a bad armature in the starter best of luck

Jon