I just got this baler every thing seems to be working well. kinda. adjusted the needles and polished the billhooks, now my problem is the inside knot doesn't get wiped off of the hook the wiper arm seems to be real loose in there is it supposed to be? having never touched or seen a baler in person should make this a fun project(hey frog it sure is hot in this tub). i can get any pic needed as soon as the camera battery is charged jon
jd 214t baler
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The wiper arm is supposed to actually scrape the knot off the billhook. That means its an interference fit. The arms are malleable iron, so all you need to do is bend them in order to get the proper wiping action.
I use two Crescent wrenches to do this: One to grab the wiper arm and the other clamped onto the first one's jaws in order to twist it. JD makes a "modeling" tool to get this job done, but the two wrench system works well for me. Do it while the arm is in place.
The arms will actually develop a channel where they rub against the billhook jaw.
I use two Crescent wrenches to do this: One to grab the wiper arm and the other clamped onto the first one's jaws in order to twist it. JD makes a "modeling" tool to get this job done, but the two wrench system works well for me. Do it while the arm is in place.
The arms will actually develop a channel where they rub against the billhook jaw.
ok today had the wife turn it over and i watched the wiperit seemed to ride on the bottom of the bill hook like it should, i think. it seems and i already lost the new fish scale, but one (working) billhook has less pressure on it seems i will get another tomorrow to test it. any other thoughts?
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Barry Bowen
Gold Member
First thing, go to JD and get the manual for the baler. It is still available, and it will be worth the price. There is an excellent section in there on all the adjustments you need to make to have the knotters working properly. My first question is, is the baler worth working on the knotters?
Is the plunger moving freely, but relatively tight? What kind of shape is the pickup and bale chute in?
If these are worth using, know we can start to look at knotter and needle timing and condition. If you have the manual, it will have the complete procedure in it for timing the baler. FOLLOW IT CAREFULLY!
Make sure the baler has all the springs it is supposed to have like on the hay dogs, drives on the knotters, and the tucker finger return springs. With out all the needed springs, nothing is going to work properly.
Basics of checking knotters, when the needle comes up through the knotter frame, it should just clear the twine disc by 1/64 to 1/32 of an inch, and it should just rub the side of the knotter frame LIGHTLY. When the wiper comes across the bill hook, it should take a good 10 pounds of pull to move it across. You cannot really check this with out loosening the knotter and rotating it up to make the wipper move across the bill hook. The bill hook also has a small spring on it that controlls the tension on the bill hook. Make sure they are good and set properly. During the tying cycle, the tucker fingers should almost touch the needles when they come across starting their movement. The twine disc should be set with correct tension. If it is too tight, you will shatter twine and miss most of your knots. GET THE MANUAL, all this is spelled out in it.
Is the plunger moving freely, but relatively tight? What kind of shape is the pickup and bale chute in?
If these are worth using, know we can start to look at knotter and needle timing and condition. If you have the manual, it will have the complete procedure in it for timing the baler. FOLLOW IT CAREFULLY!
Make sure the baler has all the springs it is supposed to have like on the hay dogs, drives on the knotters, and the tucker finger return springs. With out all the needed springs, nothing is going to work properly.
Basics of checking knotters, when the needle comes up through the knotter frame, it should just clear the twine disc by 1/64 to 1/32 of an inch, and it should just rub the side of the knotter frame LIGHTLY. When the wiper comes across the bill hook, it should take a good 10 pounds of pull to move it across. You cannot really check this with out loosening the knotter and rotating it up to make the wipper move across the bill hook. The bill hook also has a small spring on it that controlls the tension on the bill hook. Make sure they are good and set properly. During the tying cycle, the tucker fingers should almost touch the needles when they come across starting their movement. The twine disc should be set with correct tension. If it is too tight, you will shatter twine and miss most of your knots. GET THE MANUAL, all this is spelled out in it.
burnetma
Gold Member
My 327 has this issue for the first 3-4 bales every year. I think that exercise and the natural polishing of the parts cleans up the little bit of rust in the mechanism. From there the unit rarely will miss another knot.
yes i have both the om and parts manual been reading it every chance i get in hopes of catching something i missed the last time i read it. thanks for the advice. The book says 70-100 lbs on the twine disc, i have right on 100 (and a bloody knuckle from when it let go) also on the bill hook i have 7. I'm going to do the twine tension tomorrow am. The tucker fingers seem to be real out of adjustment i will try to adj. that also tomorrow. Last week i tried baling some grass and everything worked but the twine either broke or didn't knot. It did knot 8 bales but i had to "re windrow" about 10 in the process...
Barry Bowen
Gold Member
Sounds like you are making some progress. I know the book says 70-100 on the twine disc, but experience shows that 100 is too tight. The knotters will pull some twine back out of the disc during knotting. If it is too tight the knotters cannot do this, and the twine will shatter so no knot. Before you readjust these, check the condition of the flat springs that provide the tension on the twine disc. It only takes one spring, but it has been very common to use two springs. If they are rusted together they will not flex, and this makes the twine disc way way too tight. To check those springs you have a 3/8's bolt and lock nut that holds them in place. Remove it completely if you have two springs and make sure they are not rusted together, and then put a little never sieze between them.
How much clearance is between the needle and the twine disc when it passes the disc? Check right where the twine comes off the guide on the needle. Very small clearance here, 1/64 or so. Basically just not touching.
For the tucker fiingers, bring the needles up until the tucker fingers start to come across the needle. The tuckers should just barely clear WITH OUT touching. If these are not close to right, it will not bring the second twine across the bill hook.
Tension on the bill hook is not too critical. 7 is fine. Basically tighten the adjusting nut down so you can get the cotter pin in, and this is usually correct as long as the spring is not broken.
How are the springs on the hay dogs? Replace them if needed, and get the U shaped wire that goes with them. Usually the U wire brakes and the spring falls out. Especially check the one or ones on the bottom.
With no hay in the baler, at the beginning of the chamber its self, there is a plate on each side of the chamber that has what looks like a bunch of half moons pressed in it. It is called the hay resistor. If these are worn out, ie the moons are gone, you will not tie well at all. The hay resistors and the hay dogs hold the hay back during tying. If they do not work, the twine position gets all messed up.
One more thing to check and make sure okay, and that is the brake on the needle lift are. Not use, but I think it is on the lift are itself. Make sure it holds, but allows proper movement. I cannot get the parts book on like, or I would check this out.
In the OM, there is a great section on diagnosing knotter problems. It has bunches of pictures of the various problems. This may be a help when you get closer to working.
Lastly what kind of twine are you using, plastic or sisal? If the bill hooks are not for plastic, you need to use the sisal. If you have the plastic hooks, plastic does a much better job. If you can get the 210 pound plastic, you can use that as it is the same size as sisal, but it is uncommon to find any where.
Once you get things about right, you should be able to go thousands of bales with out missing one. My personal best streek has been over 5K on my 336's. Fell free to send any other questions, and please let me know how you make out.
How much clearance is between the needle and the twine disc when it passes the disc? Check right where the twine comes off the guide on the needle. Very small clearance here, 1/64 or so. Basically just not touching.
For the tucker fiingers, bring the needles up until the tucker fingers start to come across the needle. The tuckers should just barely clear WITH OUT touching. If these are not close to right, it will not bring the second twine across the bill hook.
Tension on the bill hook is not too critical. 7 is fine. Basically tighten the adjusting nut down so you can get the cotter pin in, and this is usually correct as long as the spring is not broken.
How are the springs on the hay dogs? Replace them if needed, and get the U shaped wire that goes with them. Usually the U wire brakes and the spring falls out. Especially check the one or ones on the bottom.
With no hay in the baler, at the beginning of the chamber its self, there is a plate on each side of the chamber that has what looks like a bunch of half moons pressed in it. It is called the hay resistor. If these are worn out, ie the moons are gone, you will not tie well at all. The hay resistors and the hay dogs hold the hay back during tying. If they do not work, the twine position gets all messed up.
One more thing to check and make sure okay, and that is the brake on the needle lift are. Not use, but I think it is on the lift are itself. Make sure it holds, but allows proper movement. I cannot get the parts book on like, or I would check this out.
In the OM, there is a great section on diagnosing knotter problems. It has bunches of pictures of the various problems. This may be a help when you get closer to working.
Lastly what kind of twine are you using, plastic or sisal? If the bill hooks are not for plastic, you need to use the sisal. If you have the plastic hooks, plastic does a much better job. If you can get the 210 pound plastic, you can use that as it is the same size as sisal, but it is uncommon to find any where.
Once you get things about right, you should be able to go thousands of bales with out missing one. My personal best streek has been over 5K on my 336's. Fell free to send any other questions, and please let me know how you make out.
AKfish
Super Member
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- Oct 1, 2004
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They're cheap... and they're your INSURANCE POLICY against some real damage! Spend another $.10 with your Deere dealer and buy the real things.
Also, check the twine tension feed from the twine box. IIRC, should only be ~ 15lbs or so.
AKfish
Barry Bowen
Gold Member
to echo AKFish, You need to buy the proper shear bolts from JD. The bolt and nut are about $1 a piece. They are a very specific hardness, and will also not wipe like a regular bolt will. Keep a few extra in the baler. Do you know what caused it to shear? Check the brake on your needle lift arm. If that is not held in the home position, the plunger stop will come out and you will break a pin everytime it tries to tie.
yes i do know what it was! it was a trapeze bar from the kids swing set we will blame Andrew or Amanda on that one. Is there a place on line to get the shear bolts? all the deere dealers here are residential and have to order parts from another dealer in riverside.
Barry Bowen
Gold Member
Well, the shear bolt did it's job very nicely. Any one who has baled any length of time has run into that many times. You can never stop the baler quick enough when you see what ever going in.
JD Baler Parts
Check out this site as a possibility. I am pretty sure the 214t uses the same bolt as the 14t. 214t was an extremely rare baler, but was a descent one. It was much better than the 14t, heavier and all you know.
Fourth item down on the list, no picture, is a ten pack of bolts to fit 336, which check the part number from deere. The actual part number for the shear bolt on a 336 is BP13931. Even if a little different number may possible still work.
Getting the bolts from another dealer does not make sense. JD has a large network of warehouses that have pretty much every part ever made. If you want the stuff tomorrow you can usually get it, but have to pay freight. If dealer can put on stock order comes in once or twice a week, no extra freight. I sometimes order parts through the local JD residential guy. They have complete access to any part JD makes. The problem may be getting them to actuall look up the number. Maybe just go straight to the nearest ag dealer and have him UPS it to you. Most dealers will do this no problem.
JD Baler Parts
Check out this site as a possibility. I am pretty sure the 214t uses the same bolt as the 14t. 214t was an extremely rare baler, but was a descent one. It was much better than the 14t, heavier and all you know.
Fourth item down on the list, no picture, is a ten pack of bolts to fit 336, which check the part number from deere. The actual part number for the shear bolt on a 336 is BP13931. Even if a little different number may possible still work.
Getting the bolts from another dealer does not make sense. JD has a large network of warehouses that have pretty much every part ever made. If you want the stuff tomorrow you can usually get it, but have to pay freight. If dealer can put on stock order comes in once or twice a week, no extra freight. I sometimes order parts through the local JD residential guy. They have complete access to any part JD makes. The problem may be getting them to actuall look up the number. Maybe just go straight to the nearest ag dealer and have him UPS it to you. Most dealers will do this no problem.
AKfish
Super Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2004
- Messages
- 5,420
- Location
- Alaska
- Tractor
- JD 5115M; JD 110 TLB; JD 4720; Ford 9N; JD X300R
Whoa... now that would create some havoc! You were very lucky!
My neighbor has a 336 and he's been good enough to offer his knowledge of "breakdowns" and how he worked thru 'em!
And Barry was kind enough with his advice when I first bought my 336. Only dropped one tie last summer - cause my knot slipped on the new roll of twine. (Almost hate to talk about it.... might make for problems this summer!)
AKfish
well i was out trying it out again today. i got everything as close to the book as seems logical to me.... but... now everything ties every time but they aren't getting wiped off the bill hook. when it does come off as it comes out the back it will sometimes break the right side string. any thoughts on this one? i have not messed with the wiper yet wanted advise on that first!
Barry Bowen
Gold Member
Sounds like you are making good progress, and having a little fun cleaning up the kids stuff at the same time. Sometimes it is a little difficult to try and fix stuff from 2500 miles away, but here goes.
First: adjust the wipers so they are snug to the bill hooks. It should take a 10-15 pound pull both ways across the bill hooks. You do not need to check this will a scale pull. They just need to be snug, one hand to move them across. To check this, undo the 3/8 carriage bolt that holds the knotter down and raise it up. As you move up far enough you engage the cam that moves the wiper and you can see how it does across the bill hook. Now comes the tricky part depending on how much adjustment you need. Minor ones can be done on the baler with a hammer. MINOR ONES! Gentle strikes and you will be there. Major adjustments may need to take the wiper off the baler and bend in a vice. Getting them out may not be too easy. Remove the cotter pin on the left side of the knotter frame going through the shaft that it rotates on and slide the knotter to the left to get room between the frame and the intermitent drive gear. Make not of the number of spacers under the pin and whether the knotter was tight up against the cam. If it was loose, there should already be additional shims on the shaft, so add one or two to get it tight when it goes back together. You also need to remove the cotter pin on the top of the wiper so it can drop out. It is tricky and you need to be a little bit of a contortionist to get this done, but it will come out just be inventive and patient. Now you can clamp it in a vice and hammer on it till you get it tight enough.
Second thing to check is the knife that cuts the twine. If this is dull, it will also give you the symptoms you are having, IE not wiping, hanging knots on the bill hooks, and shattering twine. I believe you knives are rivited to the wiper, so it really is most likely you will need to remove the wipers to sharpen them completely. Generally I have found using a file and a little sand paper does the best job over all.
If some one replaced the knotters years ago with much newer ones, you may have the wiper and knife bolted on. If so your job just got a lot easier to make these adjustments. All the JD knotters were the same for the 14t, 214t, 24t, 224t, 336, 346, and the begining of the 327, 337, ans 347, that is you can change them out and use knotter from any of these baler. Parts will vary a little over the years, but the knotters will all fit and work in each of those balers. In the **7 series, that started using split knotters on the shaft and all the **8 balers have these split knotter. (easier to remove knotter completely with out having to remove the shaft and the drive to it.) If you want to while the wiper is out you can remove the rivets on the knives and bolt them on. I have use 1/4-28's with a lock nut to do this. The hole threaded up easily and now I can remove knife with out taking out wiper.
Third, if the above does not solve the problem, loosen up some on the twine disc. Your 100 pound pull is too much period. Look at the length of the little pieces of twine falling out of the knotter (this is normal function, you will not change or stop this) if they are a long inch, disc is good, if they are like 1 1/2 inches disc is toooooooo tight.
Last little note, the pull on the twine out of the twine box, it takes a very light pull. Just a few pounds will do. Some one said 15 pounds, but this is way too tight and will cause problems. These are to be tight enough just to keep the twine from running out from momentum each time a knot is tied , other then that loose is best.
Question for you, have you checked to see if the hay dogs are working with good springs, and have you looked inside the baler when empty to see if the hay resistors are in okay shape? They hay dogs will keep you from making good bales, but not the problems you are having. Bad hay resistors will also give tying problems, but mostly loose bales.
First: adjust the wipers so they are snug to the bill hooks. It should take a 10-15 pound pull both ways across the bill hooks. You do not need to check this will a scale pull. They just need to be snug, one hand to move them across. To check this, undo the 3/8 carriage bolt that holds the knotter down and raise it up. As you move up far enough you engage the cam that moves the wiper and you can see how it does across the bill hook. Now comes the tricky part depending on how much adjustment you need. Minor ones can be done on the baler with a hammer. MINOR ONES! Gentle strikes and you will be there. Major adjustments may need to take the wiper off the baler and bend in a vice. Getting them out may not be too easy. Remove the cotter pin on the left side of the knotter frame going through the shaft that it rotates on and slide the knotter to the left to get room between the frame and the intermitent drive gear. Make not of the number of spacers under the pin and whether the knotter was tight up against the cam. If it was loose, there should already be additional shims on the shaft, so add one or two to get it tight when it goes back together. You also need to remove the cotter pin on the top of the wiper so it can drop out. It is tricky and you need to be a little bit of a contortionist to get this done, but it will come out just be inventive and patient. Now you can clamp it in a vice and hammer on it till you get it tight enough.
Second thing to check is the knife that cuts the twine. If this is dull, it will also give you the symptoms you are having, IE not wiping, hanging knots on the bill hooks, and shattering twine. I believe you knives are rivited to the wiper, so it really is most likely you will need to remove the wipers to sharpen them completely. Generally I have found using a file and a little sand paper does the best job over all.
If some one replaced the knotters years ago with much newer ones, you may have the wiper and knife bolted on. If so your job just got a lot easier to make these adjustments. All the JD knotters were the same for the 14t, 214t, 24t, 224t, 336, 346, and the begining of the 327, 337, ans 347, that is you can change them out and use knotter from any of these baler. Parts will vary a little over the years, but the knotters will all fit and work in each of those balers. In the **7 series, that started using split knotters on the shaft and all the **8 balers have these split knotter. (easier to remove knotter completely with out having to remove the shaft and the drive to it.) If you want to while the wiper is out you can remove the rivets on the knives and bolt them on. I have use 1/4-28's with a lock nut to do this. The hole threaded up easily and now I can remove knife with out taking out wiper.
Third, if the above does not solve the problem, loosen up some on the twine disc. Your 100 pound pull is too much period. Look at the length of the little pieces of twine falling out of the knotter (this is normal function, you will not change or stop this) if they are a long inch, disc is good, if they are like 1 1/2 inches disc is toooooooo tight.
Last little note, the pull on the twine out of the twine box, it takes a very light pull. Just a few pounds will do. Some one said 15 pounds, but this is way too tight and will cause problems. These are to be tight enough just to keep the twine from running out from momentum each time a knot is tied , other then that loose is best.
Question for you, have you checked to see if the hay dogs are working with good springs, and have you looked inside the baler when empty to see if the hay resistors are in okay shape? They hay dogs will keep you from making good bales, but not the problems you are having. Bad hay resistors will also give tying problems, but mostly loose bales.
yes hay dogs springs are all there and move easily the resisters have the cups on them. i also adjusted the twine down to @ 75 lbs. thanks for the wiper instructions i was wondering how to actually check them. when in home position they seem to wobble all around, are they supposed to be tight on the shaft or have some play?
Barry Bowen
Gold Member
In the home position they are pretty loose. I suppose that is so that they can easily align on the bill hook as they go over it. Some times you can shim under the cotter pin that holds the wiper in, and it will help. They will still be loose though when you are done, just they way it is.
ok another ? probably should have asked it first when you said sisal or poly bill hooks got me thinking it came with sisal in it but i was/wanted to use poly so i got bt130 (cheaper and shipping was half) should i order sisal while i'm waiting for the shear pins? i was worried about it rotting but now i figure the hay won't last long enough to rot.
Barry Bowen
Gold Member
If the twine you got is 130 pound knot strength, that is meant for round balers, not small squares. Sisal is usually around 170-190 knot strength. Plastic for small squares comes in 170 and 210 knot strengths. The 170 comes in 7200 foot and 9600 foot rolls. I do not know what the 210 comes in. (big square baler twine is 350 knot ) Personally I am not a fan of sisal twine. It just is not made the way it was 30-40 years ago. In years gone by it was very consistant and the individual fibers were longer, but this is not the case today. The plastics are completely uniform in size and shape. Cheap twines like Clover brand (imported) are usually okay, but if you can find Bridon (American made stuff ) it is a little more expensive, but one of the best twines you will find. The difference in the bill hooks is the size of the space between the two jaws when they are closed. Plastic twine is thinner, so the space is smaller. The 210 plastic is very very close in size to the sisal so it seem to do fine in the sisal bill hooks. You do need to move up to one of these, either one will work fine, and get away from the round baler twine though.
