John Deere 4310 Remote Hydraulics...

[harryball]

2003, JD 4310 Compact Tractor
Somebody talk to me about the rear remote hydraulics.

I purchased this tractor with remote hydraulics for the purpose of driving a log splitter and using a hydraulic center link I have on hand. The dealer sold it to me knowing what it was for, but when the remote hydraulics are in use, the rockshaft is dead. This makes their whole purpose useless. The dealer has no solution and JD has not been helpful at all.

My question is, will dumping the return hydraulic fluid through the rockshaft instead of the return to tank cause any damage?

Will that work?

Does anyone know of another mod that will work?

And to vent, Remote Hydr in use = rockshaft dead is just stupid. The engineer that thought it was a good idea should be standing here swapping hoses for me everytime I want to move a few feet to start on another pile of wood.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Iplayfarmer]

They have a place for engineers like this...

It's called upper management.

 

[kennyd]

Is this a Power Beyond hookup you have? Do you have to connect a "loop" for the 3PH to work?
If so that explains the problem your having. I think Rear Remotes is what you wanted to operate a top link anyway, the Power Beyond hookup will not do that. Let us know exactly the setup have have and we can help you more.
Can post a picture?

 

[harryball]

It is the Power Beyond kit with the hose loop. When you disco the hose loop the 3PH no longer functions. The return to the tank is to the left (facing the rear of the tractor) and you couple the outfeed from your open center device (log splitter) to that to return the oil.

I was wondering if I could return the oil into the loop instead, which should power up the 3PH if for nothing else to raise the splitter and move 10 feet.

Robert

 

[harryball]

The backhoe thread reminded me, I'd also told the dealer I wanted to run a backhoe on this tractor from the remote hydraulics. Guess he got that wrong too.

Anyone solve this problem yet?

 

[MadReferee]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I was wondering if I could return the oil into the loop instead, which should power up the 3PH if for nothing else to raise the splitter and move 10 feet. )</font>

And how do you propose to do this?

 

[browns40]

Morning Harry,

I have the 3rd SCV on the back--haven't ever used it though...

So are you saying having hoses plugged into the back ports disables the 3pt hitch, even when the flow is shut off by the lever? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Does your logsplitter have to be down for it to be level or used? I don't think the weight of a log would ruffle the 3PT much if you kept it "up" befor you began splitting, but I guess I don't have a good visualization of what your splitter looks like...

I was thinking of making a logging winch using a small hydraulic winch motor a friend has laying around, but maybe that idea needs to be scrapped... wouldn't be much good if I couldn't move it...

/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Sorry to hear about your problem...

 

[harryball]

I'm using the power beyond kit as the advertised "does everything I'll ever need" solution.

Facing the rear of the tractor:
The kit is on a bar toward the top above the center link. On the right is a female hyd coupler. On the left is a male hyd coupler.

The coupler on the right is the feed side, when in normal position it feeds a small loop of hose that feeds the chassis input for the 3PH. It is open center, if you disco while the tractor is running bad things happen as there is no where for the fluid to go.

The left coupler is just a return to tank. It litterally drops the oil in a port right next to the fill port on the back of the tractor.

When in use, you unplug the loop feeding the 3PH and hang it up in centerlink holder hook. You connector your supply hose to that port, your return hose to the return port.

Now your remote device works (log splitter for example) but the 3PH is dead.

My splitter is on legs and splits horizontal and vertical. When in horizontal it's a bit high if I park the lift high enough to drive, when in vertical the unit must be on the ground. I tried using it without the legs and encountered two problems, 1) the unit is hard to mount/dismount. Since I sit it anywhere my pile of wood may be building a mount is not practical. 2) there is an awful lot of bounce when not using the legs. I split logs horizontally up to 70 or 80 lbs.

Then, I can't run a center link or my hydraulic tiller I use on another tractor.

Just a poor design, I'm living with it but this is my first deere and I've encounter several poor choices in design.

Any ideas to modify this and make it useful would be greatly appreciated.

Robert

 

[MadReferee]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'm using the power beyond kit as the advertised "does everything I'll ever need" solution. )</font>

Don't believe everything you see advertised or everything that a salesman says unless it is in writing. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

The power beyond option is primarily designed to allow a backhoe, either 3pt or frame mounted, to be connected to your tractor. It also comes with the caveat that the 3pt will be disabled when the PB option is enabled. This is how it was designed and intended to be used.

If you want to have all the conveniences of the 3pt and have the ability to control hydraulic options like a TNT, then you need additional directional control valves. They are designed to do what you want.

All in all, the design is NOT poor. You are just trying to use it in a way for which it was NOT intended.

If your sales guy sold you the PB kit under the premise that it was a "do all" option, then he mislead you or maybe you just didn't understand what he was talking about. Go back to your dealer and complain and get what you really need.

 

[harryball]

If the PB kit was an incomplete solution sold by the dealer, then ok, the kit works as designed and the dealer (and JD) has underperformed.

So,
Can someone provide me with the part numbers or kit that JD sells to make this PB kit "complete" so I can order it?

OR
Provide me with a JD dealer in Georgia, or any other area for that matter, that can actually be helpful?

OR
Suggest a mod to the existing PB kit that will allow the 3PH and remote to work at the same time? At this point, I don't even care if they work together, as long as I can lift, drop, use, lift, drop, use etc...


Now, for the full story (and I'll not render opinions)

I'm not a full time farmer but I need what I need. Our NH has 1200 hours on it in 5 years so I am fairly familiar with a tractor seat. This JD purchase decision took over two months. The dealer had a very detailed check list of exactly what I needed and expected. I even demo'd several tractors first. None had the PB kit on them. The saleman assured me it was a simple add on. They SAW my tiller, backhoe and log splitter, they understood what the need was.

The dealer I used is now pretty much a lawnmower dealer. They sold out about 5 months after I bought one of their smaller tractors. Now the largest the new dealer stocks is in the 2000 series and not a single sales rep from before is still there.

I did have a description written down of how the PB kit works... didn't help. I have tried repeatedly to get some guidance or help but have had no luck. During the JD satisfaction survey I dinged them on three points, the PB kit, the poorly designed tilt steering wheel mechanism and the poor responsiveness from the dealer after sale. They even asked if I'd like a return call from JD, I said yes but never got that call.

When the dealer changed I lost all history and any hope of help. For the first service I didn't expect to need my Owners Manual at the parts counter. They "guessed" my tractor would use HyGard fluid, they could not tell me which oil filter I needed for sure, didn't know how much fluid the system held. Heck, it took me 6 weeks to get a warranty battery swap on an 8 month old tractor and that was after two trips. I won't go back.

Some things stand out about this situation.
1) the authorized and trained dealer did not listen to my needs and sold me a product that did not fit.
2) the salesman was not knowledgable enough to understand the product.
3) they pretty much declined to install the kit themselves by giving me a 6 week timeframe once the parts arrived. I pretty much know why now with the sell out pending (unknown to me)
4) the kit came without hydraulic connectors, the parts department did not have nor could they tell me which connectors I needed. I called JD, they referred me to another dealer which still did not have a part number for the correct connectors. I finally took the kit with me to a local shop and matched them up.
5) When I did discover how the kit worked and asked what else I needed to make it work "right" the dealer told me that's just how it works and there is nothing else for it. I called JD who seemed unwilling to tell me much of anything except refer me to other dealers. The other dealers weren't much help. I had a few suggest I might re-plumb the design, but they didn't offer any further assistance or even mention there was more to the kit to make it work as I needed.
6) JD has never answered a single question or provided any information other than referring me to an authorized dealer.

So, now you know. I'm happy with the tractor, it's been good and I still think JD makes a solid piece of equipment. To be honest, I bought it now because it's the first time I could afford it. The NH and Kubuta cost about 2/3 the price and I got about 2/3 the tractor as well. But... the NH dealer as so far exceeded the service I've gotten from JD... I've been buying my parts and equipment from them.

I realize I could call every number I can find and scream, rant, rave etc... and probably get something going. But, that's not me and if I have to do that to get service, I'll just go somewhere else next time. It's not worth a few points on my blood pressure.

I'm in the south Atlanta area and not many farms remain, we are only 30 acres and with taxes going up we are looking to evac in the near future. I'm sure that's why dealers are thinning here, but I do think JD could have done better.

Robert

 

[kennyd]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( So are you saying having hoses plugged into the back ports disables the 3pt hitch, even when the flow is shut off by the lever? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
)</font>

Harry has the PowerBeyond kit on his tractor, not the 3rd SCV kit, You will not have a problem using the 3rd SCV and the 3PH at the same time.

 

[kennyd]

Harry,
Sounds like you are in a real jam with the dealer situation. I will try to help, but I am no expert either, I know enough to be dangerous!

First, It sounds like the PB kit is complete the way you have it, like already said, it's main purpose is to provide a hookup for a backhoe, and you do not want the 3PH working with the BH on.

Second, Its sounds to me like you need the 3rd SCV kit to operate your toplink and your tiller. The handle for the 3rd SCV will go right in your fender alongside the 3PH lever. I cannot offer part numbers for this kit, but I think I've read that it is about $250.00 or so and fairly easy to install yourself. You could also hook your splitter to the 3rd SCV couplers, and bungee the handle down so your have a constant flow so you can operate it like you do now, and your 3PH will still work.
I think this will be the cheapest solution to your problem.

There are ALOT of 4310 owners on TBN, I hope somebody will chime in with the part #'s and prices for you. If not, you can register with JDParts and try to look it up yourself. Or go the main JD site, then to the configurator to BUILD YOUR OWN, and add the 3rd SCV kit to get the whole goods parts number...

Also, try searching TBN for "4310 Remotes", I am sure you get alot of hits. Just be sure to change the date range to "ALL POSTA" as it only defaults to one week.

 

[harryball]

Thanks, just knowing it's called a 3rd SCV valve is a help. I've searched the parts online and without knowing what you are looking for and not recognizing it when you see it leaves me with more guesses than I started with.

Still, does anyone know if dumping the return into the 3PH instead of the top return would cause a problem? With the log splitter, I can only imagine the 3PH would not run or run slow if you happened to be splitting at the same time you were using the lift... but that's not likely. Otherwise, I just want to lift, move, drop without moving hoses around.

When the 3PH is disconnected, it sees no flow at all. Not sure how the rockshaft works... would it consider the variable pressure/flow to be a change in position (plow digging in) and start trying to correct it or something?

Since deciding to keep the older tractor the backhoe and tiller will continue using the pto pump for now. The centerlink I have has a valve on it, you turn around to adjust, instead of screwing you fiddle with the lever... err did I say that /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

So, if I can dump into the 3PH safely, that'll be the cost of a couple of fittings.

Robert

 

[BloomingtonMike]

The Third valve for the 4310 has two different possible parts:

The first is:
Serial Number H330095, -P335041, -S330068 = LVB25084


The Second is:
Serial Number H330096, -P335042, -S330069 = LVB25569

Harry, Now that you have seen the images I deleted them so the thread is readable.

http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/com.deere.u90490.partscatalog.view.servlets.HomePageServlet

 

[harryball]

hmmm... I remember seeing that before, the saleman told me the Power Beyond Kit was what I needed as it provided a higher flow rate and steady power. I was never told it disabled the 3PH in order to use it. From their later reaction, they didn't know it either.

I was told the kit you show here only added a second lever to control strictly a two way flow, in or out and was only suitable as a lever for a center link (mine already had one mounted right on it) or to control a few other things. I was even told I would need both kits if I had a tiller going and a hydraulic center link. hmmm... now how would that work, tiller runs and I can change the angle but I sure can't pick it up.

Anyway, at the time I was having to trust the dealer to know their business. I guess I'm going to have to revisit this little issue.

I think I'll call JD and refuse to accept any referals until I get someone that can explain how this system does work.

Thanks.

oh, and if any engineers or other's out there know if it'll hurt to dump through the 3PH, I'd still like to know. I've already invested in the kit I have... if I can atleast make it mostly function I'd be ok with that.

 

[BloomingtonMike]

Another option is the DSCV diverter kit but that is about a thousand dollars+ .

CAn you explain to use non log splitter users why you need a hydrolic top link with it? Also how many valves does it take to run the log splitter?

 

[JB4310]

Robert, I'm not an engineer but will try to help, since you keep going back to the idea of dumping the return line from the splitter back to the TPH. I don't think that will work because the return from the log splitter would not have the pressure required to operate the three point hitch, like you said, it just "drains" back to the tractor. I also have a 4310 with a 48 back hoe and the power beyond, have thought about other uses for the PB but don't have any needs at this time. I wouldn't think swapping the hydraulic line to move the splitter would be that much of a hassle,[should be easy to get to, though you do have to shut down the engine and unload the hydraulic pressure] you should try changing those lines after you raise the back hoe and pin it to the frame, there is about 2 inchs between the couplers and part of the seat frame to work in. Can't help with the tiller or center link problems. Good luck, John

 

[MadReferee]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( the saleman told me the Power Beyond Kit was what I needed as it provided a higher flow rate and steady power. )</font>

A red flag should have gone up right when the salesman said this. He obviously did not know what he was talking about, especially the higher flow rate. Sheeesh. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[harryball]

to answer some questions...

The centerlink (toplink or 3rd link) is not for the log splitter, it is for the scrape box, scrape blade, root rake, disc etc... I can change the angle the full range in a few seconds by turning around and moving the lever on the the side of it instead of turning the link and screwing it in or out while twisted over a high back seat for several minutes.

The log splitter simply takes in fluid on an open center valve. When not in use the fluid is just running through it at full pressure, in and out. When the valve is moved the fluid is forced to travel into the cylinder and the return stops flowing, when in reverse flow the fluid is forced into the front chamber and the cylinder is withdrawn. When in neutral it's just a full bypass right back to the tractor.

If my thinking is correct, when in neutral, the 3PH will not be able to tell the difference between going through a 2 foot loop vs. a 10+ foot loop (2 5' hoses plus a valve housing). When I'm moving the splitter, the 3PH will stop seeing flow just as if unplugged.

The more I hear from you guys and analyze this, I don't think it'll be a problem for the splitter or a centerlink with an open center. Lever in the center = passive loop, which is the same as the passive loop. The lift simply won't move when using the remote device, which is OK. I just need to make sure all my hoses will take the same pressure as the kit loop hose.

For a tiller or some other active flow device where the fluid is driving a turbine the return fluid would never be a constant useful pressure and would not properly drive the 3PH. The pressure could even surge on the return, which I'd think could be bad. So I won't do that.

I think I'll get some parts and make a simple adapter and try it out. I'll let guys know what happens. May take a couple of weeks though, Christmas and all.

Also, the centerlink seems to have at least made a few of you curious. It is nothing more than a small cylinder with a valve attached to it with couple of adapters to plug in. The lever is right on top. We cut the ends of a regular screw type link and welded them on each end. The cylinder was chosen by size so short = about the length of the screw type link full in and long was the same as it's full extended length.

The log splitter was a must. First, I'd much rather maintain 1 engine that does many things than many engines some of which sit idle for months. Second, we have very large trees around, many oaks at 36+ inches. I've not cut down a tree in 10 years, the ones that fall or limbs that break during storms have supplied all the wood I've needed. I have about 30 cords on the ground now since that last tornado came through. I use the tractor to pull the fallen trees out and put them on something to keep them off the ground. The problem was, most of the log splitters I tried would stall or simple not have the power to do the job. I also wanted a splitter that would go horizontal and vertical. This one has done the job well. With the load match turned on, the tractor will never stall and this past weekend I split a 40" log section with a limb section in it. Oh, she groaned but it split it.

Oh, and really nice tree sections go to the local mill.

Harry

 

[JB4310]

How about a tee to select between the 3PH and the splitter, you would have to have some type of shut off valves to choose where the flow would be dedicated to. Though if you say the flow would be at full pressure through the splitter when it's not in use then I guess your idea would work, but what about when you are using the splitter, not sure if that would be an O.K. route to return the fluid to the pump.[through the 3PH]. With the tee you would not be compromising anything, you would just have to turn a valve handle to direct the flow to where you wanted it. Just my thinking out loud,sounds like you know more about hydraulics than I do. I recently (3 years ago) got a 8H.P. tow behind splitter, vertical or horizontal, only use it about 2-3 days a year so yes it is a pain when you have to remove the mice and nests along with other tweaking just to get it running every year. It has all the power I need but don't know why or how anyone would want use it horizontally. John