jumping through hoops

Chuck52 · Jun 13, 2002

I think this is where I've seen building inspection stories before, so I thought I'd add mine:

Our house was built in 1958. All brick, full basement ranch. In 1958, folks didn't know the joys of things like master baths and such, so it had a single bath for all three bedrooms, though there's another full bathroom in the basement and a half bath off the laundry room. Anyways, when we bought it last year, I knew I was only gonna get my 10.5 acres if I agreed upfront to add a master bath and bump out a sunroom off the family room. So we added the two rooms and managed to get a really good match on the brick, much to our surprise. The site made it reasonable to put the new rooms on crawl spaces, though I don't particularly like crawl spaces. However, our contractor, who also doesn't much like crawl spaces, did them right. Full perimeter drain around the footings. Lots of gravel covered by plastic sheeting under there. Insulated inside all around, with good ventillation. We just had some very heavy rains and both spaces are nice and dry. So the final inspection comes around, and the inspector insists we add ground source protected circuits to both crawl spaces in case we ever need to put in sump pumps. I haven't checked the cost, but I bet we're talking mucho dinero since they would have to be pulled from the main panel. When the contractor questioned him about it, the inspector said he could require the pumps be installed....in other words, shut up or I'll really stick you! The contractor read the code, and the requirement seems to be dependent on the level of the water table. In other words, if the crawl space is too close to the water table, a sump pump is required. Now, these crawl spaces are right beside our full basement, which is several feet below their grade. There is a sump pump in the basement, and last year we did get water in the basement after rains that equaled those of the great flood of '93. This year's heavy rains....several inches in a couple of days...no water in the basement. Logic, apparently, does not apply, but if the crawl spaces are within inches of the water table, and are attached to my basement, which is several feet below them, why do I not have a built-in swimming pool?

Chuck

JoeR · Jun 13, 2002

Inspectors are government workers. They put process before progress (This is usually not the individual's fault). Not to mention that the guy you had doesn't seem understand that the rules are a guideline, and logic shoule prevail.

Joe

rf33 · Jun 13, 2002

Sorry to hear about your misfortune on this one, it seems sometimes inspectors just seem bent on their viewpoint, regardless of whether or not it makes sense. Perhaps if there are already any three wire circuits or outlets already in the vicinity, you could simply move them to the crawl space? I don't know the code in your area, but here you can either use GFCI outlets, or GFCI circuit breakers installed in the box. Could you bring them in underground without going through the house by installing a seperate subpanel somewhere? Just some ideas cuz I know it aint much fun running wire in an existing house./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Gary_in_Indiana · Jun 13, 2002

I've learned over the years of dealing with inspectors that there's no point in arguing a point with them. Even if you win this one, you'll regret having started the fight later. I don't think you're looking at a huge expense for the wiring. You might be able to get by with GFCI outlets, which are really inexpensive.

I've found if I ask the inspector for help I usually get some great ideas on how to do what they ask and usually it's a better and less expensive way than I'd have come up with myself. Whatever you do, make the inspectors your friend. It'll pay off in both the short and long runs, believe me. Good luck with your project. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Golfgar4 · Jun 13, 2002

I agree with Gary in Indiana. The inspector can create a lot more trouble for you than you can for him. You may be right logically, but whoever said that a government employee was logical?? (I can say that because I AM a government employee!/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif). Generally speaking, if you're cooperative and willing to listen, most of these inspectors will have reasonable solutions that makes everybody happy.

We had a situation locally a while back. Our codes require that driveways have a sidewalk section in them, even if that neighborhood does not have sidewalks. The rationale for this is if sidewalks are ever required at a later date, by including the section when the driveway is built will actually save the homeowner money by avoiding having to rip out a section of driveway and replacing it with the sidewalk section.

Anyway, a guy decided to build his own driveway. So one day he's out there digging away, and one of our City engineers is driving by. The engineer recognizes what is going on, and stops to talk with the guy. He explains that he needs to get a permit to do his driveway, and that he would be happy to assist him with it. The citizen gets all irate and starts claiming that the "City" is just trying to steal more of his money and make him do his driveway a different way than he wants to. The engineer trys to explain why the permit is necessary, but the citizen isn't listening. So the engineer warns this guy that if he goes ahead and builds it without the permits or in line with codes, the City could make him rip it out and do it again. Well, you can guess how that went over!

Anyway, the guy goes ahead and builds it HIS way, even though a number of attempts by the Engineering department to stop him and/or help him avoid a problem were ignored. A short time after the driveway was finished, the guy gets a letter from Code Enforcement stating that his driveway is in violation of various City codes, and if he does not bring it into code, the driveway will be ordered to be removed. The guys sends a nasty gram back to the City telling them exactly what they can do with their codes. Well, a few days later a City crew showed up with the equipment necessary to make short order of the driveway. When the guy saw this, I guess he finally realized he might need to do a little negotiating. After a lot of talking, pleading, begging, etc., the crew held off until a engineer came out and the guy agreed to do everything that he should've done in the first place.

I know this is not exactly the same as your stuation, but it does show how these things can get out of hand.

PitbullMidwest · Jun 13, 2002

Chuck,

Inspectors can be a real pain. Before we built our house we had a mobile home. The inspector first required that we put a poured wall foundation under it. Local codes state a permanent foundation is required for manufactured homes and he said he would decide the type. We fought him for three months and finally "won" and put in poured pier footings.

When it came time for the electrical hookup he handed me a hand written list of what the city required, I took it to a supply shop handed them the list and hooked things up as instructed. He denied us hookup because I used aluminum direct burial wire (not allowed for residential). I shoved his list under his nose and showed him that I bought exactly what he told me to buy, he looked at it and said "Oh, I guess I forgot to write DO NOT USE in front of aluminum wire." Two more weeks to get a variance from the planning committee. On the second inspection he denied hookup because we had a solid core ground, and he likes to see multi strand.

When we built the house we had a different inspector and everything went smoothly until Inspector No1 showed up. He measured our 2nd story bedroom windows and stopped construction because the total sq ft was 1/2 a sq ft too small for purposed changes to the code. The change would establish minimum openings for fire fighter access. He said "he always tries to meet a higher standard." Our contractor replaced the windows at no cost and used the old windows in a home he was building in the county so that there wouldn't be any delays.

Lots of our subs told us that it wasn't anything personal, he was like that with everyone. Big fish syndrome I guess.

Anyway good luck with your inspector.

Golfgar4 · Jun 13, 2002

"Inspectors can be a real pain."

"Lots of our subs told us that it wasn't anything personal, he was like that with everyone. Big fish syndrome I guess."

I guess I feel I need to clarify my earlier post with the example of the driveway situation.

I'm not saying all inspectors are cooperative and accommodating. In fact, I'd have to say that we have one of the toughest electrical inspectors I've ever seen. This guy goes by the book, and don't try and tell him any different.

But, I don't think it's because of the "big fish" syndrome. I think it's because he truly believes that it's in the best interest for the safety of everyone that the book be followed. He's gotten a reputation for being a real hard a$$.

However, if the "book" provides any latitude or flexibility, then he always decides in favor of the citizen.

I'm not saying what happened to you was right. It was absolutely WRONG!! It sounds like when you beat the guy on the foundation problem, he decided he'd make life real difficult for you. And that's too bad. Because all that does, besides getting a citizen totally ticked off, is continue to perpetuate the belief that all inspector's are miserable, difficult people.

One thing that most people forget, is that if there's a dispute with an inspector, they can ask for another inspector to review the situation and make a recommendation. And believe it or not, at least from our experiences, the second inspector has no problem with making a conflicting recommendation. If there is an opposing second recommendation, then the department head will make the final call. It works pretty well, at least for us.

Gary_in_Indiana · Jun 13, 2002

PitBull's story illustrates my point of "What can happen" perfectly. As he said, he "won" on one point and then had numverous problems thereafter. Just the time and effort involved in winning some points (like getting the variance he describes) involve time, money, aggravation and frustration. I don't know about you, but I can't afford many "victories" like that.

Personally, I've had great luck with inspectors. I'd like to say I can attribute it all to doing everything perfectly the first time, every time. The truth is it's because I make them my friend and ask their advice and counsel BEFORE I do something and then invite them out for what I call a "pre-inspection" during the process of the project so they can see what and how I'm doing whatever I'm doing and give me feedback then.

If they have any changes they want, that's the time to make them. I honestly can't recall that every happening, though. What I do recall is they're usually happy to help and, being involve before and during the process, they've become a part of it. It becomes OUR project. How can they not approve OUR project? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I even had an electical inspector note the wrong gauge ground wire in a meter box during the final inspection on a service upgrade. He asked if I had any of the proper size wire on site and I didn't. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif I didn't even have a screwdriver with me. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif He went to his trunk, got a length of the proper wire and replaced my wire all but the last quarter turn of the second screw. He then handed me his screwdriver and told me I had to finish it because he "wasn't allowed to do this." /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif He then approve my project and, in so doing, saved me the $25 (back then) re-inspection fee. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MikePA · Jun 13, 2002

Now, these crawl spaces are right beside our full basement

Is there a way to run two circuits from the full basement into the crawl spaces, e.g., drilling through a joist bay? The previous owners of our house did something similar to what you did. The addition is over a crawl space and it covered up two basement windows. They just took the windows out of the openings and that's how they ran the ducts as well as the electric from the full basement and into the crawl space of the addition.