Just bought first tractor and got ripped off

[LD1]

The add said it was in good shape. Also I have texts of him saying that all the tractor needed was small cosmetic things and after I contacted him about the weld he pretty much said he knew about it but forget to tell me. I have all this in text messages.

Unless the Judge reads the text message:thumbdown:

This is all the info we have so far about the text. We have the OP's interpretation of "he pretty much forgot to tell me"

Maybe the text is worded as such that it proves he forgot.....maybe not. At this point we dont know.

Beyond that.....one would still need to prove that the damage was beyond cosmetic AND that the seller intentionally forgot. Again, this could have been repaired 10 years ago, and been fine every since except for a small drip.

If I had any old tractor that when parked in the garage, left a drop or two of oil.....I'd have no reservations about calling it in good shape and only needs cosmetic things. If I were to sell my 1960's backhoe, I could write a 10 page list of everywhere that drips oil and everywhere that has a bit of weld on it. If questioned.....I wouldnt lie about anything. It is what it is. Like I said....you have to PROVE that the seller had the intent to purposely deceive the buyer. Not impossible....but pretty tough to prove

 

[ruffdog]

Maybe buyers should start using disclaimers that are signed by the sellers stating any "known" problems.

 

[Ford850]

The repair looks like a good job, and if done years ago the seller could have forgotten about it. Especially if he didn't use the tractor much lately. It's possible that the crack was stressed and extended slightly while loading the tractor, and that's why it leaks at the very end of the original fix.

 

[CanDo]

I,m going to chime in with Midniteoyl and agree that, if what you say is true, you do have an action against the seller. His posts contain good stuff!

Let me add that some of your options are:

1. Revoking your acceptance based on the undisclosed latent (hidden) defect. This would be asking the court to set aside the contract you give back the tractor and he gives you back your money. Understand that your revocation should be within a reasonable time from the time that you first became aware of the latent defect.
2. Suing for breach of contract. Intentionally misrepresenting a fact relating to the tractor (which would include failing to disclose a known latent defect) is fraud and not only is fraud a tort, but is also grounds for breach of contract. Here again you could ask the court (if you win) to set aside the contract or, in the alternative, you could ask for damages in order to put you in the position you should have been absent the breach - you keeping the tractor but he would be paying to have it fixed. Keep in mind that if the contract is set aside then the "AS IS" portion of the contract is also set aside.
3. Suing under a tort theory (fraud) which, in addition to actual damages, may allow you to ask for punitive damages (and maybe even actual attorney fees) which in theory are designed to teach people to stop doing bad things! And yes, this theory sometimes works!
4. In addition, there is always the issue of collect-ability of any judgment that you might win. If he is judgment proof (no money) then of course you win but you lose! However, few people are really judgement proof. They work you can garnish some part of their wage. They have money in the bank you can take it. Certainly there is property that may be exempt from attachment, but much property is not exempt and thus would be subject to seizure. Even if they are not working and have nothing, you would add to their woes by negatively affecting their credit rating and on top of that, any judgement is (depending on your state) likely good for 10 or so years and may even be renewed for a second period. In effect, you would be his worst nightmare for the next couple of decades! He may settle up just to get rid of you!!!

All of the above are civil actions that you could pursue for yourself in small claims, or better yet, with the help of an attorney in regular court. You might consider talking to an attorney (they will often give you the first 30 minutes or so at no charge) to see what they think your chances are and in addition, they may take it on a contingency where there would be no fee unless you win and then they would take a percentage of what is collected. Before you think that such a small case may not be worth it for an attorney to do on a contingency basis, consider looking for a recent law grad that has just hung a shingle. They might have the time and the inclination to help you out.

Finally, many torts are also a crime! Many prosecutors are far too busy chasing killers, rapists, drug dealers, etc. to worry about little (in their minds) things like fraud but in smaller more rural areas they may take this kind of malfeasance seriously. You shouldn't threaten to prosecute someone as that is often a crime itself, but if it happens it really does put you in a great position because any plea agreement offered by the prosecutor is likely going to include resolution of a claim by the immediate victim of the crime which of course would be you.

These people get away with this crap because the victims are often uninformed, misinformed or intimidated by the prospect of a legal action - which makes them a victim a second time!

Anyway, the bottom line is that before you go on to do any work on your tractor I would suggest that you take a day or two and find a young hungry recently minted attorney and ask for that initial free consultation to see just where you stand in your particular jurisdiction.

Give it some thought and I (along with all the others here) wish you the best of luck!

 

[roadhunter]

This is a situation I would tell myself to move on. Do the best you can to take care of the repair but dont' waste time and $ trying to get even. It sucks that some people are like this weather they intend to or not but life's too short to get caught up in this. Come to terms with it and move on instead of letting it eat you up on the inside thinking about it. At last that is what I'd tell myself to do.

Best of luck with the tractor.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Do you see a crack in the weld? ... I dont in the pics. The leak may be just from some porosity within an otherwise strong fix. If so, you may just have a leak to stop. Forget JB weld either way. Nothing will give you enough strength, but if its just a leak look for oil tolerant sealers for tight porosity. -- Then do a clean up and fix in place. Do not use Brake Kleen because it leaves a difficult to remove residue in the metal that will degrade the adhesive as the casting warms up in use. Acetone or alcohol followed by thorough drying with a hair dryer will be much better.

my suggestion, exactly.

 

[Threepoint]

Lots of thoughtful discussion in this thread, but I come back to my post #53. See the OP's posts #8 and #9 in that regard. Nothing at all wrong with a seller making a major repair like welding/brazing a crack in the transmission (or a bell housing, or even an engine block, etc.) and then advertising the equipment as in good condition, "as is, no warranty". Nor is he obligated, without more, to initiate a disclosure of the repair when the buyer doesn't bother to ask about repairs.

But that presumes the seller does not know at the time of sale that the transmission has recently started leaking oil at the weld site, giving reason to believe that the repair has partially failed. Here he admits in writing that he knew this for two months prior to the sale. And the fact that the repair site had been covered with gasket sealer and painted over raises the question of when that was done. As I say, if it appears to be recent, then the finder of fact could conclude by a preponderance of the evidence (i.e., that it is more likely than not) that he intentionally deceived as to a very material problem by remaining silent.

I'm just talking about principles of law here, based on the few facts we have. Only the OP knows all the details. But it sounds to me that he has a reasonable case for fraud, if he has the enthusiasm to pursue it. Small claims court in Virginia has a judgment limit of $5K, and he can only sue for money damages (or the recovery of personal property, which is not applicable here). So he could not have the sale set aside (rescission) in small claims court. But he might be successful in recovering enough money to repair the problem. Importantly, the small claims court judge has broad discretion to consider and admit evidence that would not necessarily be admissible in a regular trial in the circuit court. The rules of procedure are also much more relaxed. I'm not encouraging the OP to go this route, but he should not be discouraged from considering it. Here is a link to a primer published by the VA courts.
http://www.courts.state.va.us/resources/small_claims_court_procedures.pdf

 

[Garandman]

I signed a bill of sale and it stated AS IS and No Warranty. So I don't know if that would help.

"As is" and "As represented" are two different things.

 

[Midniteoyl]

more of our conversation

I hate to say it, but none of that is an admission of quilt. He even claims that 'something' in the case was repaired before he bought it, that it did drip 'a little', but that he never looked underneath and never saw, or knew about, the weld... All of this would indicate that he did not, in fact, know about the leaking weld repair.

Sorry.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Oh.. and if you do decide to do more, you might wanna take those pic of the conversation down.. In fact, I would take them down regardless less they come back to bite you.

Regardless of whether people here think, or dont think, you got ripped off, nothing in those messages shows any proof that he 1)knew about the problem, much less the repair, and 2) he had any intent in defrauding you.

In fact, he mentions that you are the one who noticed and asked about the leak, and he told you what his mechanic told him. After the sale, he worked with you to find answers and maybe even a little compensation for your troubles.

I think that in this case, you bought something without really knowing what to look for, but were not deceived intentionally in any way that you could take to court, much less win.