killed my case 580c

[mattellis2]

Not been a good day for me. About two months ago, I bought an old Case 580c. The plan was to excavate a hill to build a shop, do a few odd little jobs and resell it. I've been piddling around with it in my free time, and have had a lot of fun. I've excavated about 250 yards, and the project is wrapping up.

Today, the plan was to finish up. I had to dig 5-6 small stumps and do a little grading, and then I'd be done with the hoe. I positioned the tractor, spun around and started working the hoe. About 30 minutes later, the tractor died, which was odd, since it has always run without problems. I hit the started, it fired up and I reached out with the hoe to take another bite. As soon as I put a load on it, it died again. I hopped down, walked around to the front of the tractor, and immediately noted all my engine oil on the ground. A stick had punctured the oil filter, and I ran the thing dry. Pretty sure it is seized now. I got a new filter, refilled the crankcase and tried to restart it. No go...I can hear the solenoid on the starter, but the engine doesn't turn over...at all.

Any bright ideas on how I can unstick it? Is there a low oil safety switch that I am not aware of that needs to be reset? (That is just wishful thinking...I kind of doubt there is on a 35 year old tractor) I can get the exhaust manifold off fairly easily I think. Should I pull it and squirt some Kroil into the cylinders?

I'm so bummed. I was within an hour of being done, and I just got the hoe back together on Thursday after having to tear it down for some boom repairs.

 

[Transit]

This is not very good. Is there any way to get a long handle wrench on the nut that holds the pulley to the crank shaft and SLOWLY turn the engine by hand?

 

[whodat526]

pull the starter and bar it over and even if u get it free it will most likely knock

 

[mattellis2]

This is not very good. Is there any way to get a long handle wrench on the nut that holds the pulley to the crank shaft and SLOWLY turn the engine by hand?

my neighbor suggested this as well. i cleaned up the loose dirt around it, and will start removing the grill and such to get better access tomorrow.

pull the starter and bar it over and even if u get it free it will most likely knock

are you suggesting using a prybar on the flywheel to try to get it turn? this may be a possibility as well...if i could get it just fire again, i could move it out where it could actually be worked/readied to take to the shop.

 

[scesnick]

Was it knocking really hard when you re-fired it for the last time? smoking really good? Or anything out of the ordinary?

 

[mattellis2]

no, it started and ran fine. i even revved it a little bit. it died as soon as i put a load on it, and no luck since.

 

[whodat526]

my neighbor suggested this as well. i cleaned up the loose dirt around it, and will start removing the grill and such to get better access tomorrow.



are you suggesting using a prybar on the flywheel to try to get it turn? this may be a possibility as well...if i could get it just fire again, i could move it out where it could actually be worked/readied to take to the shop.

yea i would pry it over with a bar through the strater hole because if u try to turn the bolt on the end of the crank shaft u might twist it off

i have pried abunch over like that when they seized up sometimes u get lucky and it isn't seized that bad and it will run fine with know problem it is most likely only stuck on the first or second rod bearing

 

[scesnick]

I think you might get lucky then. I have a 580B and while digging on a hill all the oil ran away from the oil pump and it started knocking big time with some white smoke. Spun a bearing on the crank. $2k later and I finally got it running again a few weeks ago..

 

[mattellis2]

got the starter out. i was fumbling around in the dirt with a flashlight and a wrench, but at least got access to the flywheel. i'll try to turn it tomorrow when i can actually see what i am doing.


which way should it turn if you were sitting in the seat looking towards the loader? should i try to turn it the opposite way, or does it matter?


thanks for the help guys.

 

[whodat526]

it really doesn't matter which ever way u can get the pry bar in there and get a good bite

 

[David-Davies]

I too bumbed my oil filter on my 454 IH, twice. After the second time, I could only get 25 psi at 1800 RPM, and nothing at idle. I ran it for two more years befor I spun a berring. Then I had to rebuild it.
Dave

 

[Ford tractor]

Does that engine have glow plugs in the cylinders? If so, pull them and squirt in 6 oz of ATF in each cylinder. That will lubricate the rings and hopefully allow you to spin it over. I would squirt and wait 24 hours, try to bar it over or use the starter, then repeat. For up to 7 days.

The ATF will run out of the cylinders past the rings, but you should have the glow plugs out when you try to turn it to avoid the possibility of a hydraulic lock. If it does start, crank it for a bit to blow out as much as possible to minimize the huge blue cloud you will form when it fires up.

You can google and find the 580C service manual online for about 20 bucks.

 

[redneckexplorer]

Forget pulling the glow plugs, it' s not the rings that are seized. Its the babbit BEARINGS that require a constant flow of oil. You might get it unlocked and be OK for a while. But, I would go ahead and put rod and main bearings in it.

 

[whodat526]

yea he can get it free and running then just drop the pan and roll the new bearings in that way

 

[mattellis2]

OK, next question: i took the front end apart to see if I could turn the crank that way. I didn't feel like was getting enough purchase through the starter access hole to really be applying any force.

I removed the grill and the hydraulic pump that rides on the crank. I inserted a 1/2" extension bar into the hole in the center of the hub that the pump rides on. I can turn the pulley (any by extension the alternator) but i still cant get it to start. If it were seized, would I be able to turn it with the extension bar?

When i try to fire it, I get a click from the solenoid starter but it doesn't try to turn over.


eta: also when i turn it, it is difficult at first, then gets easier...then difficult, then easier....like i am actually forcing the pistons up and down. is that correct?

 

[yooper1]

Not sure that this is the answer, but seeing as the solenoid clicks when you try to start it...maybe jump / by pass the solenoid?

Just a thought....at least to see if it turns over easy....er

 

[shiver]

Well, if you can turn the crank, I'd say that's a positive sign, unless something broke up front.

If you turn the crank via the pulley and someone is watching the flywheel,
does it turn? If it is turning, that is good too, I'd say.

If the turn the crank via the pulley and the flywheel doesn't crank, I'd say
that would be bad.

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

If the dang thing turns, but the starter doesn't engage, I'd say you'd have an
electronic problem.

Read this: Case 580C starter - Heavy Equipment Forums

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Well, if you can turn the crank, I'd say that's a positive sign, unless something broke up front.

If you turn the crank via the pulley and someone is watching the flywheel,
does it turn? If it is turning, that is good too, I'd say.

If the turn the crank via the pulley and the flywheel doesn't crank, I'd say
that would be bad.

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

If the dang thing turns, but the starter doesn't engage, I'd say you'd have an
electronic problem.

Read this: Case 580C starter - Heavy Equipment Forums

It the teeth on the flywheel moves when the front pully is turned then that is good news.

I would work it back and forth with the wrench. Make sure it can not fire should you get it to fire under compression by the wrench.

You may be OK. My 1983 JD BH start will hang sometimes and I saw how rusty it was in there when I pulled it and cleaned it.

 

[Transit]

Yes, it may be that the solenoid is not engaging the starter. The solenoid does two things.
First, there are heavy duty contacts in the solenoid that close to send current to the starter motor.
Second, the solenoid moves a gear in the starter motor shaft that engages the flywheel to spin the engine.

That clicking you hear indicates insufficient power to the solenoid. I would check all the battery connections to the starter and tractor frame. Also inspect all the wiring under the tractor in the interlock circuits.

 

[mattellis2]

Transit, are you my dad?! I have been talking with him by phone about this snafu too, and he described the operation of the solenoid exactly as you did.

I got my wife to lay under the tractor while I turned the crank. She was really excited to lay down on the sheet of plywood I put down, but I did get her to confirm that the teeth did move while I worked on the front end. I agree with you other guys that is likely an electrical gremlin at this point. Oh happy day that it happened to fail when it did, or I would have certainly ruined the engine.

My dad is going to come by on Tuesday to help me trouble shoot the electrical problems (by troubleshoot, I mean, he'll do all the work while I watch) I don't get circuits and current and amps...and I don't want to electrocute myself screwing around with the 1000 amp battery I put in the tractor 2 months ago.

In the mean time, I am going to replace the terminal claps...they're both old and sloppy as far as contact.

Thanks again for all the help.

-matt