King Kutter Top Link

Soundguy · Nov 2, 2005

( I have ask the question "Has anyone actually had a brush hog flip up on the tractor while using a chain for the top link )

It appears that Gregg, on the first page of this thread had a situation where his tractor / mower combination nearly folded in half due to the rear end of the tractor falling in a hole. he reports that the rigid toplink was damaged.. but prevented the mower gearbox from coming to rest in an area where his head would have occupied.

That sounds like proof positive for me to the 'safety' features of the toplink...

To comment on a post from Farmwithjunk. Yes.. the 3pt hitch as a whole was a 'safety' added feature over the older 'drawn type implements.. especially plows. I have seen many pictures of fordsons and drawn plows standing on end from where the plow encounered a stoppage. With the 3pt, the geometry helps transfer downpressure to the front of the tractor.. helping to keep the tractor glued to the ground.. not backflipped. Those with draft sensing also had the extra feature of lifting the plow as it encountered the heavy draft (of a stoppage ).

Soundguy

Soundguy · Nov 2, 2005

( I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree with your philosophy )

Lets step back and take a more modern look than an old manuals warning.

The toplink is an integral part of the 3pt hitch? I think that is an undisputed point? correct?

My operators manual on my 2002 tractor states to always 'properly' attach implements to the 3pt linkage, for safety.

I don't think you can get any plainer than that. The toplink is part of the 3pt.. and if the manual states that it must be used for proper connection of 3pt designed equipment, for safety.. I don't see a good way around that that would hold water in.. say.. a liability case.. etc... as I'm sure that is what 90% of the consumer safety warning we see today are designed to protect against.. liability lawsuits.. etc.

Soundguy

jinman · Nov 2, 2005

( And just because something isn't listed in an owners manual as a saftey device, that doesn't make it NOT a saftey device. I'd about bet your brakes aren't listed specifically as "saftey device" in any manuals, but if they AREN'T saftey items, what is? Same applies to 3-point hitches. They made using a tractor MUCH safer. To me, that would put them in the "saftey features" section of MY manual.
)

I have no doubt that your experience has taught you the safest operation of many tractors. I would never question that. However, I do think you are reading something into my statement that the toplink is not a "protective device." I said nothing about a "safety" device. When I think of protective devices, I think of things like a bumper as a protective device for the front of a car/tractor and a ROPS as a protective device for the operator of a tractor. In that regard, I would argue that brakes are not protective devices. They can stop you from getting into an accident, but they will not protect you if someone runs into you. Thats the function of seatbelts, ROPS, or a car's airbag. On my tractor which has a hydrostatic transmission, the safety feature of the brakes is diminished to parking or use when the transmission is in neutral (which is essentially parking). I don't think you would disagree with that. The situation determines safe use.

You could also infer that everything between the front and back covers of your Operator's Manual relates to safety and I would not make any argument with that. I do have a problem when someone "paints with a very broad brush" that doesn't respect another person's informed experience or judgement.

You and I would surely both agree that the 3PH was designed by Harry Ferguson to help eliminate backflipping. In the process, the toplink of this system also was designed to provide feedback to the hydraulics as a means of draft control for plow depth. Backflipping while pulling a rotary cutter with a chain toplink is not a significant problem or we would surely hear more about it. The rotary cutter's actually flipping up into an operator is also something I've never heard an actual case of. That's pretty much what you said in your post and I agree completely. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

deerefan · Nov 2, 2005

I have come to observe that I am a lot younger and less experienced than most folks here. But in my short life of 27 years, I have seen many people injured and killed not using things as they were intended or not using them correctly. Just recently, the fire department I am a member of responded to a call of a man run over by a bushhog. Needless to say, he did not make it. Tractors are getting safer every year and if we use them and their accessories as intended, the number of injuries and fatalities will decline.
If the top link is a vital part of the 3ph, use it. If it is used correctly it only makes the machine and attachment that much safer to use. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Soundguy · Nov 2, 2005

After reading this thread a 2nd time.. anfter stepping 'back' a little. I do see something that I believe jinman touched on. There may be a terminology issue / generalization issue.

Some people are being very exact on some issues and meanings, and some are looing at certaint hings in general.. or a combination of generalizations and specifics... Me being one of them 'generalizin' people.

I see now.. we are talking about a few similar.. but different ideas... safety devices, safety features, and protective structures... A few of us.. (me) were lumping those together.. as they all kinda work toward extending the lifespan of the operator /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif.. but as some have pointed out.. they are different. looking at it that way.. it sheds new light ont he situation.

No doubt the rops/fops/area protective devices.. safety devices might include? seatbelts ? And saftey features migh be things like manual interlocks and seat switches?

Might be some intermingling too.. .. for instance.. a pto drive shaft with integral shield might be considered a few different ways.. a device, built for a 'non safety' purpose.. yet which hasbeen modified with a safety feature? Same might be said of the ferguson 3pt lift system.. primary use is obviously tool manipulation.. but has a safety feature in that it can lift the tool to avoid a blockage, and also due to geometry, help to transfer load forward to increase traction on the rear, and help stall a backflip.. etc..??

Amazing what a few hours distraction yeilds when you come back and re-read a thread and see a different concept burried in there than you did hours before...

This sound more like what we are all trying to say...?

Soundguy

Farmwithjunk · Nov 2, 2005

I'm starting to understand that now famous quote, "It depends on what your definition of "is" is.

I think the word I'm looking for is semantics.

Ain't this FUN!!!!!!!!

jinman · Nov 3, 2005

( Ain't this FUN!!!!!!!! )

You betcha! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif A good heated discussion where we have disagreement, but we don't deteriorate to name-calling. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Perhaps our elected reps in Washington, DC could take a lesson or two from TBN. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Farmwithjunk · Nov 3, 2005

(

Perhaps our elected reps in Washington, DC could take a lesson or two from TBN. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif )

If they were to be reasonable folks that learned valuable lessons, they'd be disqualified from office /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

milkman · Nov 3, 2005

( 'proper' 3pt hookup and use of the toplink for safety. mentions to always use the toplink where applicable, as it 'helps' to prevent / stall backflips.

I take that as a defacto 'warning'.

Soundguy )

I too have a problem believing that a bush hog would flip up and hurt the driver if using a chain for the toplink, how would the pto shaft compresss enough for that to happen, and as for the "defacto warning" I can see that on the older tractors but wouldn't the ROPS in a backflip situation, or the bush hog flipping up, on the modern tractors, protect us from injury?

sweettractors · Nov 3, 2005

I too have a problem believing that a bush hog would flip up and hurt the driver if using a chain for the toplink 

I have had the toplink on a brush hog save me from a tractor flipback on several occasions here on the hills of Central Ky. Usually, I would be mowing (Brush Hogging) up grade and the front of the tractor would start to come up off the ground and by the time it got 1-2 ft in the air, the toplink would begin to start bottoming out and give me time to hit my tractor clutch and stop the flipback from occuring. --Ken Sweet

Sweet Farm Equipment LLC *Used Ditchwitch R50 Trencher/Backhoe $6995*

greg_g · Nov 3, 2005

( how would the pto shaft compresss enough for that to happen )

The "flip" I experienced was so fast, there wasn't time to compress. And if your shaft is cut to the proper length for the implement, the compression factor is mere inches. When the deck "flips" up, the tranny gets considerably closer to the tractor spline. The shaft has no choice but to pretzel.

I was able to clutch/brake before serious damage was inflicted to me or the tractor. But the toplink was ruined, and I had to put the PTO shaft in hydraulic press. Trying to pry apart a bent and compressed PTO shaft can be a challenge.

//greg//

jinman · Nov 3, 2005

( Usually, I would be mowing (Brush Hogging) up grade and the front of the tractor would start to come up off the ground.... )

Hmm...
I believe I see the unsafe practice here, and it has nothing to do with a connected toplink. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Farmwithjunk · Nov 3, 2005

( ( Usually, I would be mowing (Brush Hogging) up grade and the front of the tractor would start to come up off the ground.... )

Hmm...
I believe I see the unsafe practice here, and it has nothing to do with a connected toplink. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif )

We have a term here in Kentucky, for ground where your tractor starts to rare up part way up the hill.....

FLAT LAND!

You aughtta see what we consider a hill. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

jinman · Nov 3, 2005

( We have a term here in Kentucky, for ground where your tractor starts to rare up part way up the hill.....

FLAT LAND!

You aughtta see what we consider a hill. )

Sounds to me like you need to put away your rotary cutter and get out the G-O-A-T mower. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Farmwithjunk · Nov 3, 2005

We never have a problem with drainage issues.

Funny you should mention goats. The oldest grandchild is 4H age next year. I've been planning on helping her with raising her first steer. Her dad wanted to show a hog, mom wanted sheep, my wife suggested rabbits.

So, Corine NATURALLY, decided she wants to raise a goat.

Soundguy · Nov 3, 2005

( how would the pto shaft compresss enough for that to happen )

I've actually helped repair my stepfathers tractor twice now.. both pto section failures.. pto shaft was pushed INTO the rear o fthe tractor.. took out the independent clutch, ate up the pto bearing carrier.. broke snap rings.. etc.

Once was an employee using a tiller that had too long of a shaft.. once was with an old mower.. and one of the two bottom arms popped off the mower as a pin came out. in a split second the pto shaft got in a bing and corkscrewed.. rippingthe pto shaft out..

So.. I don't put much 'hope' in waiting for the 2-pice rotating pto shaft to help me any in a compression situation... seems like with the rotational energy they fold right up.. or when push comes to shove.. the little pto bearing carrier onthe tractor stub isn't strong to prevent much compression.. etc. ( Byt the way.. this was on a JD 2240... a nice beefy 1979 50hp tractor... )

( but wouldn't the ROPS in a backflip situation, or the bush hog flipping up, on the modern tractors, protect us from injury )

Yes.. a rops is designed to stall a backflip.. and a tractor without a rops.. but with a rear 3tp implement.. likt a box blade.. will have some 'rear' rollover protection due tot he max angle the tractor can lean back befroe the 3pt travel limit is reached. IMHO, most scut/cut tractors would not be able to perform a straight backflip with a rear box on the 3pt, due to angle and tire size, the box would stop tractor's nose from going past the flipping point. Now.. a realy large tractor with real big rears, and a small box tucked in clse.. might make it over... wouldn't want to be the test case either way /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As for a rops stopping a mower backflip / operator injury with mower flipping up... maybee... if the rops are angled back enough to keep the mower deck / gerbox from smacking you inthe head /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Again.. I don't want to be the test case!!

Soundguy

jinman · Nov 3, 2005

( So, Corine NATURALLY, decided she wants to raise a goat. )

Just be sure you don't have any objects near the fence that it can climb up on and jump over the fence. I swear my wife's goats would try to climb up and stand on a toothpick if you stuck it in the ground. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Farmwithjunk · Nov 3, 2005

One more "project animal" around here and they're going to need to watching ME to keep me from climbing the fence and escaping. I LOVE dogs, but the wife thinks she needs to rescue every stray mutt that wanders this way. We currently have 7. 2 cats, 14 cows, about 25 or 30 chickens, 5 grandkids, 1 wife, and now a goat. Feeding time is a 24 hour a day ritual.

The upside to the goat thing? I have a hardy crop of poison ivy behind the barn. I hear they eat it like candy.

Soundguy · Nov 3, 2005

Same here.. 3 horses, a cow, about 45 assorted fowl ( ducks/chix/turkey/pigeon).. 5 dogs, and 13 cats.

I had 1 cat when i met my wife.. and it was a stray pickup ( cat.. not wife /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif ).. and now we have all that. 1 dog we actually bought... Add to that about 100 domestic 'pet birds ( cockatiels, finches, keets.. etc... hmm.. a rabbit.. turtle.. gecko.. lots of fresh water fish...

My feed bill from the local co-op is a couple hundred a month easy... more in the winter when I'm buying bales for the 'hay burners'... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Soundguy