kioti starting problems

[sdavies2000]

2006 kioti ck30 hst

I recently jumped on my tractor to plow the driveway, turned the key and " click" the dreaded click. it had sat for a couple weeks and it is the original batter so that was my first suspicion. Put the volt meter on it, 12.6 volts, drops to below nine when trying to crank (started doesn't engage). Also, while the key is in the "on" position, the batter starts to cook, you can hear it sizzling inside and if let go long enough, gas is emitted from the top and you start to smell sulphur. So I threw another battery in it, same thing. I then grabbed a third battery and connected it with jumper cables, eliminating the negative terminal (clamped jumper to alternator bracket) and the positive to the tractors positive lead. same thing, battery cooks and no starting. clicks and more clicks. the kioti dealer is 1.5 hours away and as it turns out I was going to be driving right past it on my way to family Christmas this weekend so I picked up a new starter. installed it lastnight, no changes. I know I know, don't just go blindly throwing new parts at things, but I figured since I was going past the dealer I'd roll the dice on the starter and pray that was it. well now im lost at what to do. I don't understand what is cooking the battery, bad ground/short circuit in the ignition system? anyone with any experience with these tractors with any ideas please enlighten me, I would appreciate it!

 

[ritcheyvs]

Based on your description, something is drawing a LOT of current when you try to crank. I don't think anything but the starter can do that (because of the main fuse).

It almost sounds like the engine is locked up. Try turning the crankshaft by hand from the front of the crankshaft. I think you can do that with the right socket, an extension, and a breaker bar. Make sure the crankshaft can rotate and is not (somehow) frozen. Be sure to turn in the direction of normal rotation. If there is some way for liquid to get into a cylinder (like a dripping injector), that can produce hydro-lock.

If you can turn the crank, I'd try the brute force test of the battery, cables, and starter. If you can securely hold the old starter, you can do this same test on it using jumper cables to connect to a battery. Be sure it is securely held, otherwise it will "jump" when it starts to spin and could short the jumpers.

Question: did the new starter include a new solenoid (or did you reuse the old one)?

 

[sdavies2000]

the starter came with a new solenoid. you don't have to crank to start cooking the battery, with the key just in the "on" position it starts to sizzle and gas up. this is the part that really confuses me.
I will try the jumper to starter test when I get home from work.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Copy. I would try the brute force test on the new, installed starter with the key off and the tractor in neutral. That should cause the engine to crank if the battery, starter, and battery cables are OK. If you have the old (external linkage) style stop solenoid there is a possibility the engine will start (unlikely with no glow plugs) so be prepared to use the manual stop lever, just in case.

Just so I'm clear, the 12.6 volt (no load) battery gets pulled down to 9- volts just by turning the key switch from off to on? This puzzles me because there is a 60 amp slow-blow fuse that "protects" EVERYTHING except the starter motor and I think it would take more than 60 amps to pull down the battery voltage or cause sizzle and gas unless the battery is bad or frozen. Is it possible someone bypassed that fuse with a wire some time in the past? That fuse should be taped to the wire bundle near the starter.

Ignoring the fact the 60 amp fuse didn't blow I have to wonder if the actual key switch is shorting internally somehow. The main load that gets current when the switch is turned to ON is the glow plugs. Maybe a glow plug is shorted? There is a spade connector on the back of the buss bar (that connects the top terminals of the glow plugs). You could try disconnecting the wire (at the spade terminal) from that buss bar to see if that changes your symptoms. The glow plugs are supposed to turn off momentarily while cranking the starter to ease the load on the battery.

There are two versions of this engine. One with an external stop solenoid on the right side of the engine that operates the manual stop lever via external linkages. The other has the stop solenoid bolted to the front of the engine block just in front of the injection pump with no visible linkages. The electrical systems are somewhat different so it would help to know which you have. Also confirm you have the roll-bar version without a cab. The cab version has a whole electrical system of its own.

 

[sdavies2000]

I will double check the voltage drop when I get home but believe the drop only occurrs when the key is turned to "start" but the battery still cooks while turned to "on".

none of the batteries I used were frozen as I took the caps off to check levels.

I am the only owner of the tractor so nothing has been bypassed.

I will do the brute force test and look into the other possibilities you mentioned when I get home.

It is a plain jane roll bar version, no cab.

Thanks a lot for your help richeyvs, Ill provide you with answers as soon as I can. really appreciate this.

 

[Kioti Paul]

I believe ritcheyvs has really given you solid advice, it also seems like you know your way around the electrical system.
Your symptoms really do seem to defy logic!

I have a couple of questions,,

1) When you measured the "below 9 volts while holding to start", was that measured at the battery terminals? (Not at the battery cable clamps)
(is there NO chance the sizzling sound is actually coming from a battery cable??)

2) When the battery cooks and begins gassing, are all cells 'boiling' more or less equally; or is 1 cell 'boiling' much more "vigorously" than the rest? Did BOTH installed batteries exhibit the same 'boiling' characteristics, ie all cells 'boiling equally?

3) Did you confirm that the engine is free to turn?

I wish you the best of luck figuring this one out; it really seems puzzling to me! Please let us know what you find.

 

[sdavies2000]

Okay so. The voltage at battery terminals (2 different batteries tested) shows no drop when switched from stop to Acc. When switched to auto warm up position, voltage drops to 4-6v. And crackling/gassing occurs.
I tried the brute force test on newly installed starter with multimeter inline at battery. Initially you could hear bendix gear jumping up but no spin or crank and voltage drops to .5v immediately!
I tried a few times and now the bendix gear doesn't even jump so likely cooked a new starter? Oh and the engine turns freely, just rotated fan by hand.
The glow plug connector is round and under a nut ontop of the first plug on the bus bar. It's very difficult to get at so wasn't able to unbolt the line. However if battery voltage drops to half a volt upon attempting brute force test, it likely doesn't matter..praying we don't get snow for a long time! My driveway is huge haha.
Oh and I don't let the battery go long enough to notice which cells are the worst. It's not a sound or smell I like very much! I do t want to wreck batteries either.it starts right away and then I stop, I don't let it boil over.

My stop lever doesn't have any linkages directly attached to it.

One other thing I noticed. When in the auto warm position and reading 4-6v, if I proceed to go further to start or crank, the voltage goes back up to 11-12 while holding key in that position.

 

[ritcheyvs]

I doubt you hurt the starter but I think you did the brute force test wrong. The meter should not be inline with anything. To do it correctly, battery cables should be connected normally at the battery and starter. Then jump from the big terminal on the solenoid (where battery + cable connects) to the small spade terminal on the solenoid using a piece of wire.. The meter plays no part in this test. From your description you may have fried your meter or (more likely) blown the fuse in the meter.

Can you confirm that the voltages were measured at the actual battery POSTS, not at the battery cable clamps or some other point. Your results are consistent with a bad/corroded battery cable, clamp, or ground connection except for the huge voltage drop at the actual battery posts (when the key is switched on).

A starter normally pulls hundreds of amps and that pulls a good battery down only a couple of volts. The main fuse should not allow more than 60 amps to flow when the key is turned so it's really hard to see turning the key to ON could draw enough current to pull the battery down 4-6 volts (at the posts). But a bad cable or ground could easily give this reading if it was measured downstream from the battery posts.

I doubt it is relevant now, but you can also deactivate the glow plugs by pulling the connector on the glow relay (on firewall).

Oh, and put those batteries back on a charger. Not good to let them sit in a discharged state.

 

[sdavies2000]

Something I forgot to mention. When I turn to auto warm and read 4-6v and proceed to attempt to crank, the voltage jumps back up to 11-12 while holding key in that position.
When I say inline what I mean is I have the leads from the meter sandwiched between the battery posts and the jaws on jumper cables. The meter didn't play any part other than tell me what the battery was doing while performing the test. I used two screw drivers. Positive from battery attached to one screwdriver placed against pos terminal on solenoid. Another screwdriver on blade connector and then held the two screwdrivers so shafts came in contact. No other way to get at the terminals on starter/solenoid. The aftermarket starter is different.
I also found that 60amp fuse and tested its continuity/resistance,it's good.

 

[Kioti Paul]

I find it very difficult to believe the "engine turned freely" from turning the fan by hand; are you SURE the actual crankshaft pulley was turning? (the fan belt wasn't just slipping???)

This really sounds like a bad battery! Was the second (installed) battery new; or removed from a different vehicle? If from a different vehicle, did you confirm it would crank that vehicle - before swapping batteries? Do both batteries make the same noise/smell?

I too am a bit confused by "with multimeter inline at battery" - That kinda sounds like you disconnected a battery cable, then connected the meter in series with the battery and cable? Which, surely couldn't have passed enough current to even activate the solenoid. Or were you just saying that you were measuring the voltage at the battery?

All that being said,,, IF the voltage (measured across the battery POSTS - NOT the cable connectors) drops from 12.5+ volts to 5 volts just from turning on the glow plugs; then I cannot imagine what else it could be, besides a bad battery!! HOWEVER, the odds of two batteries showing EXACTLY the same symptoms (right down to the same gassing/smell) must be astronomical!

I don't suppose you could turn the headlights on, without the glow plugs, and see how much that draws down the battery voltage??

Just judging from your description of the symptoms, and despite the utterly amazing coincidence of 2 bad batteries (with identical symptoms), I would think the next step would be taking both batteries to be checked out,

 

[ritcheyvs]

It sounds like you measured the voltage at the cable clamp, not the actual battery post. If you haven't already, recommend you remove the cable clamps from the battery posts, clean the posts and inside of the clamps, reassemble, and try again. This acts very much like a bad contact between the battery posts and the battery cable clamps. Or maybe I misunderstand, again.

 

[sdavies2000]

the battery isn't even in the tractor. its on the shop floor. I have one end of the positive jumper cable clamped onto a cleaned tractor positive cable that would normally attach to battery post. the other end of jumper is clamped on pos battery post. negative jumper is clamped onto alternator bracket and negative post of battery. the negative or ground cable from tractor frame to battery isn't even part of the equation this way.
the multimeter leads are connected to the battery posts, not in series or anything funny. I shouldn't have used the word "inline".
everything turns freely when I turn the fan, no slipping, all pulleys turning and I can feel the pistons inside the cylinders going through the different "strokes" as they compress and start coming down again, vice vera.
the batteries I've been testing with came out of boats from this fall which have been on maintainers since taken out of boats. when I started troubleshooting, I was actually using 3 batteries but switched to two this time because it seemed ridiculous. I will however go purchase a load tester and test them all for peace of mind.
I will try turning the headlights on when I get home, that's a good idea.

 

[Kioti Paul]

Did you ever actually INSTALL a 2nd battery (with clean, tight clamps), or did you use jumper cables to "install" the 2nd (& 3rd) battery?

 

[sdavies2000]

jumper cable install....I did clean the outside of the pos terminal from tractor though where the jumper clamp makes contact. I did actually try but the batteries are slightly bigger than the original so I wasn't able to get them into place, which is why they remained on floor and used jumper cables.

okay point taken, I will buy a new battery on my way home and install it properly. What specs do I need for a ck30? I never looked at the cold cranking amps on original and I'd have to go home first to look then drive 30mins back into town to buy battery.

 

[Kioti Paul]

I don't have 1st hand knowledge of the battery for the 30CK tractor. Hopefully someone will post the correct one soon.

I did a quick search and found the following link:


Kioti CK3 Tractor Battery (25-28)


In case you can't pull it up, below are the specs:

Details
Group 24 Battery

Voltage: 12
CCA: 750
CA: 905
RC: 120 Min.

Length: 10.50"
Width: 6.75"
Height Over Terminals: 8.75"

Terminals: Auto Post
Chemistry: Maintenance Free - Flooded Lead Acid


This web site also says this is the same battery used in my DK45.....and it is, so I think it probably is correct in regards to your tractor. Kioti is becoming popular enough that most places that sell batteries should be able to look up the correct one for you.

Good Luck!

 

[sdavies2000]

thanks richeyvs and KP. I will update later on today after install

 

[cabin kioti]

I also have a CK30HST and replaced the battery after ten years. I have a friend of mine that experienced a similar problem. He called me and said his battery was bad on his ck30 and he replaced it with another battery and the tractor will not start. I went over to give him a hand. I checked voltage all ok starter fuse ok but when you turn the key to start only noise from the starter. Pulled the battery checked grounds all ok. He put the battery on charge and then called me. I went back over and he put the battery back in with no change. I checked voltage per the specs. I asked were he got the battery and it was from his fishing boat. The battery was from his trolling motor and a deep cycle, Replaced it with a new battery and started right up. I have been following this and anything that would make the battery cook would surely fry some wires. Good luck.

 

[sdavies2000]

Okay, let the ribbing commence. Put a brand new battery in it and voila, fired right up! It was a 13yr old battery so no surprise there but lesson learned, don't test with boat batteries on jumpers! Thanks for everyone's help!

 

[Kioti Paul]

I am so glad all worked out!

I have come to the conclusion that it is extremely difficult to describe, in a relatively few words, what your symptoms are, and what steps you have taken to diagnose the problem. It is equally difficult to interpret (in those few words) what is the most likely (in your opinion) failure, then communicate effectively on how to proceed. Kinda puts the Kioti Service Manual in a new light for me...imagine having to do that when you don't speak the language!!

I will say you got your moneys worth from that first battery!!:thumbsup:

 

[ritcheyvs]

Attaboy Davies!

The next thing I would have suggested was connecting the + jumper to directly to the starter solenoid, bypassing the regular battery cable. And then get the battery tested at a car parts place (I assume you have those there); in the US places like Autozone will test a battery for free.

You told us all along that the battery voltage measured AT THE POSTS was down to 4-6 volts when the glow plugs fired up but I doubted you actually measured it at the posts. Bad on me. In retrospect, I realize that when you said the meter probe was between the jumper and the battery post, I envisioned an installed battery with cable clamps connected, such that the meter probe had to be between the jumper and the battery cable clamp (i.e. not actually on the posts)

Anything below 10v with a legitimate load is a sick (or discharged) battery. Back in the day, batteries died slowly but the new ones seem to suffer from sudden death. This is one more data point to help the next guy.