Kioti

[k0ua]

Lets see if I can clear up a couple of things. An ordinary Hydrostatic transmission consist of pump driven by the engine crankshaft, a swashplate with pistons and slippers that ride and rotate on that swashplate and a hydraulic motor. Your foot controls angle of that swashplate and hence the stroke of the pistons that control how much fluid flow passes to the hydraulic motor and the direction of that flow.

They hydraulic motor takes that flow of fluid and drives a standard unsynchronized old style 2 or 3 speed standard gear transmission. The human operator controls this old standard transmission with his hand. He selects which gear to be in based on his estimation of the torque and speed needed to do the job. The The hydro has nothing to do with gear selection in any way shape or form.

The old "let off of the hydro pedal to shift to a lower gear" is a misunderstanding. Here is what you are actually doing. You start up a hill and your speed slows. Why does the speed go down? Because the ENGINE is no longer in its torque sweet spot and is not making as much torque as you would like. The RPM's of the engine drop and the tractor slows down. So now you back off some on the hydro pedal and the tractor may actually speed up a bit or at the least does not continue to lose speed. Why?

Because by letting off of the hydro pedal you decrease the flow rate to the hydraulic motor as the piston's have a shorter stroke because you have decreased the angle of the swash plate. This would actually slow the tractor down some, but it also decreases the torque load on the engine. This has the effect of allowing the engine governor to actually increase the RPM of the engine because of the reduced load and get the engine back into its "sweet spot"

While is may seem that you have shifted to a lower "gear" you have only controlled the flow rate to the hydraulic motor

Remember a hydrostatic tractor transmission works NOTHING like an automatic transmission in your car or truck. NOTHING.

An engine always has to balance torque and speed and finding the right spot with your hydrostatic flow rate and the proper selection of the manual transmission gears after the hydraulic motor (which we call a "range" selector) is the key to making sure the engine stays in the spot that it makes maximum power.

 

[IndyJay]

Lets see if I can clear up a couple of things. An ordinary Hydrostatic transmission consist of pump driven by the engine crankshaft, a swashplate with pistons and slippers that ride and rotate on that swashplate and a hydraulic motor. Your foot controls angle of that swashplate and hence the stroke of the pistons that control how much fluid flow passes to the hydraulic motor and the direction of that flow.

They hydraulic motor takes that flow of fluid and drives a standard unsynchronized old style 2 or 3 speed standard gear transmission. The human operator controls this old standard transmission with his hand. He selects which gear to be in based on his estimation of the torque and speed needed to do the job. The The hydro has nothing to do with gear selection in any way shape or form.

The old "let off of the hydro pedal to shift to a lower gear" is a misunderstanding. Here is what you are actually doing. You start up a hill and your speed slows. Why does the speed go down? Because the ENGINE is no longer in its torque sweet spot and is not making as much torque as you would like. The RPM's of the engine drop and the tractor slows down. So now you back off some on the hydro pedal and the tractor may actually speed up a bit or at the least does not continue to lose speed. Why?

Because by letting off of the hydro pedal you decrease the flow rate to the hydraulic motor as the piston's have a shorter stroke because you have decreased the angle of the swash plate. This would actually slow the tractor down some, but it also decreases the torque load on the engine. This has the effect of allowing the engine governor to actually increase the RPM of the engine because of the reduced load and get the engine back into its "sweet spot"

While is may seem that you have shifted to a lower "gear" you have only controlled the flow rate to the hydraulic motor

Remember a hydrostatic tractor transmission works NOTHING like an automatic transmission in your car or truck. NOTHING.

An engine always has to balance torque and speed and finding the right spot with your hydrostatic flow rate and the proper selection of the manual transmission gears after the hydraulic motor (which we call a "range" selector) is the key to making sure the engine stays in the spot that it makes maximum power.

Best explanation I've seen yet!

 

[k0ua]

What gears? Does an HST have gears?

The ones in our tractors do. The ones on a lawn mower DO NOT. The reason for the manually operated gears (NOT under control of the transmission) to select lower ranges for more torque and less speed. 2 or 3 (better) are provided so that the operator can select as needed for the job, either more torque, less speed or more speed less torque or somewhere in the middle. Lawn mowers are in "HI" direct drive all the time, They are not very flexible, and it is not uncommon to have a load condition where the relief valve opens and the tractor does not move nor spin its tires. This doesn't happen all that often but it does happen. Simply because there is no torque multiplying mechanism (the gear ranges)

 

[k0ua]

And I have never seen a hydrostat that the pump acted as the motor or the motor as the pump. The directional changes are facilitated by the swash plate going to a negative angle and covering and uncovering ports feeding the hydraulic motor so that the flow goes one direction or the other. There is no reverse gearing at all just directional flow changes.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Understanding and Troubleshooting Hydrostatic Systems

Hydrostatic drives are used in a variety of applications throughout all types of industries. They are sometimes referred to as hydrostatic transmissions. Anytime one or more hydraulic motors…

www.machinerylubrication.com

An example of what @k0ua was talking about:

 

[Williy]

You guys are saying just because its
fluid drive it don't have gears????

My tractor transmission has:
Its 3 selections for shifting
2 front gears
2 front clutch gears
2 front drive gears
3 counter gears
3 reduction gears
2 idle gear shafts
there's more gear shafts
ALSO the PTO has many many gears

willy

 

[Midniteoyl]

You guys are saying just because its
fluid drive it don't have gears????

My tractor transmission has:
Its 3 selections for shifting
2 front gears
2 front clutch gears
2 front drive gears
3 counter gears
3 reduction gears
2 idle gear shafts
there's more gear shafts
ALSO the PTO has many many gears

willy

It has gears, just not in the hydraulics. The engine spins the pump, the pump spins the motor which in turn spins gears in the rear end, which you select as 'Low/Med/High'.

 

[k0ua]

Neil talked about changing gears when you press the pedal because he thinks you all are too simple to understand the explanation I gave you. I will assure you that pressing on the hydro pedal has NOTHING to do with any gears, because there are NO gears associated with the hydraulic pump and swash plate and cylinders/slippers and hydraulic motor and the only gears involved are the 3 speed range selector transmission that the operator controls with his hand.

Also in the second video he demonstrated stall guard on and off. Notice which range he demonstrated that feature in was HIGH range, because the tractor would not have stalled in either LO or Med. ranges. The tires would have spun. And in Lo or Med you can press that pedal to the floor if you want to when pushing into the pile and the result will be tire spin not engine dying.

Also be advised the all of those features he described are on the Grand L modes with their Hydrostat + transmission. This is not the standard old hydro that most brands have (like my Kioti for instance) Some of the newer Kioti's and other brands notably John Deere, now have some or nearly all of those features. But they were not common at all 10 years ago but were available on the Grand L machines from Kubota.

 

[Beeenvenue]

The big question is: What are you planning to do with it?

I have a 35HP HST CK series Kioti with an FEL. I've had it about 10 years and it's been really reliable without any problems. Comparing them side by side, it appears to be a much beefier design than an equivalent Kubota. The FEL has an easily detachable bucket via a quick-attach plate that allows me to connect to pallet forks- the Kubota did not have this. The roll bar folds down which makes it noce for mowing around trees.

The hydrostatic drive is great for moving snow and dirt as well as mowing with a 6' mower. I added a tooth bar to the bucket and excavated an 18 x 32' area 7' into the side of a hill and the tractor had no problem with that. The bucket is large enough to hold a fair amount but a couple full buckets of shale soil that floated the back end quickly showed the need for a 3 pt mounted counterweight on the back of the tractor to keep it safe.

On the negative side, the HST with 35HP isnt the best for field work unless you move up to a larger tractor to compensate for it. You lose a fair amount of HP due to the HST (35hp becomes 29 or so HP to the wheels) so the tractor bogs down quickly when pulling a 2 bottom plow. This isn't helped by the R4 tires that are useless for plowing. Further, with the HST foot pedal on the right side, there is no way to differential brake to control the tractor and help with turning even though the tractor is set up with differential brakes. A manual transmission and AG tires would be much better if you plan to do field work with this tractor. I'm glad I kept my NAA that pulls my 2 bottom with no problem.

Hope this helps and gives you some items to consider.

A bit misleading as the 35hp geared only has 31 hp at the pto. Any tractor is going to give up 10-15% of engine vs pto hp. Hst takes a bit more away (29.6 vs 31) but if 2 hp is that critical then buy a bigger tractor.

 

[ptsg]

A bit misleading as the 35hp geared only has 31 hp at the pto. Any tractor is going to give up 10-15% of engine vs pto hp. Hst takes a bit more away (29.6 vs 31) but if 2 hp is that critical then buy a bigger tractor.

That 2 HP difference is only if you're using a stationary implement like a wood chipper, generator. Once the tractor starts moving, that's were the losses will appear.

 

[Beeenvenue]

Clarification to Indyjay’s nice spreadsheet on page 1. The 2610/3510/4010 is 63.5” wide with r4 or r14 tires. The width he shows is with ags.

to the OP - I bought a 3510 hst se in 2019 after 6 months of looking and testing. By far the best value for the money that I found combined with nice controls and cockpit layout, which is what sold me. The thought of 8-12 hours in an open ROPS tractor bushogging in 100+ heat is daunting enough without the mess of a treadle pedal, solid seat without springs, or cramped cockpit.

to those who say 5% doesn’t matter I’d agree but for a $20,500 unit in 2019 the kubota 3301 was 23500 and 3901 was 25500. Splitting the difference for the difference in hp is 4K - that’s 20% and definitely was a factor in choice.

 

[wrath]

Where is here? Around these parts "Michigan" Kioti does NOT lose 30% of its value when you drive it off the lot.In fact they hold there value very well.In southern Michigan most Massey dealers have left the state for whatever reasons.I used to own a Massey 1240 back in 2006 I sold it as there was no dealer support.

So I just did a search for a few Kioti compacts and subcompacts on Facespace Marketfarce for 80 miles within Ann Arbor, MI. Looks like low hour (less than 120 hours a year) ones are listed for 25-35% off new ones I find on TractorHouse. Since 2018, the US dollar is worth nearly 20% more so it actually makes it look even worse. What's going to happen when they re-align and the tractors have to get more expensive?

Tractors are like new construction houses. They should never depreciate more than 8-10% and then at worse never appreciate but usually tick along with inflation. In fact, if you play the rebate game it should never actually depreciate at all. Excess wear or abuse can cause it to be devalued, but it should never depreciate. Look at tractors from 30 years ago and they're selling for what they cost then, inflation is what causes them to look "cheaper".

 

[Aquabird]

I bought a new MX 5400 Kubota 13 months ago. I had a 1991 Ford tractor that I really liked before that, so it was not my first.
The Kubota I got was not that much more than the 3901, but had a lot more HP and lifting for the FEL.
I really love it so far. I have hydro drive and 4wd. I like how much bigger the axles were than the Kubota 3901 and the extra lifting capacity for the bucket.
I am sorry I cannot compare it to the kioti. My New Holland dealer tried to sell me a kioti when I went to look at the New Hollands. When I went to another New Holland dealer he directed me towards Kubota. Then I went to still another dealer only about 5 miles away and bought my Kubota and saved a lot of money with all the deals they had going on. Low interest rates, money off tractor with loader, money off second implement and I could have and should have gotten the extra money off thru the equestrian program.

 

[coobie]

So I just did a search for a few Kioti compacts and subcompacts on Facespace Marketfarce for 80 miles within Ann Arbor, MI. Looks like low hour (less than 120 hours a year) ones are listed for 25-35% off new ones I find on TractorHouse. Since 2018, the US dollar is worth nearly 20% more so it actually makes it look even worse. What's going to happen when they re-align and the tractors have to get more expensive?

Tractors are like new construction houses. They should never depreciate more than 8-10% and then at worse never appreciate but usually tick along with inflation. In fact, if you play the rebate game it should never actually depreciate at all. Excess wear or abuse can cause it to be devalued, but it should never depreciate. Look at tractors from 30 years ago and they're selling for what they cost then, inflation is what causes them to look "cheaper".

H,mm still never fully answered the question where is here? Are you a politician ?? I don't go into a purchase thinking by god what is this tractor or piece of equipment going to be worth in 5 years.I purchase for the long haul.Maybe you are not the type that does..Do you even own a tractor or the type that just barks numbers/figures to seem important ??

 

[AcrossTheHoller]

Get the Kioti! I am proud owner of a 2020 ck2610. Would get a kubota only if i was willing to pay the extra for the brand name. And i dont do that. I also wear whatever jeans fit. Walmart, or whatever

 

[paulfun9]

H,mm still never fully answered the question where is here? Are you a politician ?? I don't go into a purchase thinking by god what is this tractor or piece of equipment going to be worth in 5 years.I purchase for the long haul.Maybe you are not the type that does..Do you even own a tractor or the type that just barks numbers/figures to seem important ??

He is most likely still under the illusion that we all pay asking price for the kubota and JD. I love that type when I sell something it’s especially profitable in the Harley arena, more fools willing to hand me big profits based on adds they see and not knowing I picked it up two weeks ago for almost half what thier paying me today.

On here I tell the truth, but if you come to buy a used kubota I will pretend thier worth more if the buyer is foolish enough to believe it. I will also gladly take the fools money and go buy something else in hopes I can find an other sucker to pay extra for when I sell it.

Problem is people are getting smart and walking past right to the LS, Mahindra, Kioti down the street that’s priced fairly to begin with.

 

[kantuckid]

H,mm still never fully answered the question where is here? Are you a politician ?? I don't go into a purchase thinking by god what is this tractor or piece of equipment going to be worth in 5 years.I purchase for the long haul.Maybe you are not the type that does..Do you even own a tractor or the type that just barks numbers/figures to seem important ??

I will be either dead & gone or setting records for oldest tractor man in 30 years. I goota say you have the USD value ass backwards at increasing 20% since 2018. I bought some Walmart Kahn's German Bologna today and one version had increased from $2.96lb to $5.43lb. At he eye doc I was told what 'll call the deluxe implants are $3,100 per eye plus surgery stuff-they've gone up by a quantum leap since my wife's implants in 2013. Any tractor I buy will easily outlast me.
My grandest desire is that after I buy a new one soon, my old one will sell as high as the idiotic price points I'm seeing now.

 

[wrath]

H,mm still never fully answered the question where is here? Are you a politician ?? I don't go into a purchase thinking by god what is this tractor or piece of equipment going to be worth in 5 years.I purchase for the long haul.Maybe you are not the type that does..Do you even own a tractor or the type that just barks numbers/figures to seem important ??

How do you think I'd know to pick Ann Arbor, Michigan? You sound like a salesman. Probably bought your tractor at Budd's. Certainly combative enough.

The residual value on any asset is a good indicator of its perceived quality and demand. If people are willing to pay more for it later as compared to a similar widget, then there is a reason for it. It could simply be perception, but that perception was developed for a reason and may not be relevant anymore. Doesn't matter if it's a Kia Sportage, a Canon L-series lens, or a Kioti tractor. Nobody wants a Sportage, everyone would rather have a Canon premium lens over a Sigma, etc.

I have several tractors, but the largest one is a Massey 2135.

 

[coobie]

How do you think I'd know to pick Ann Arbor, Michigan? You sound like a salesman. Probably bought your tractor at Budd's. Certainly combative enough.

The residual value on any asset is a good indicator of its perceived quality and demand. If people are willing to pay more for it later as compared to a similar widget, then there is a reason for it. It could simply be perception, but that perception was developed for a reason and may not be relevant anymore. Doesn't matter if it's a Kia Sportage, a Canon L-series lens, or a Kioti tractor. Nobody wants a Sportage, everyone would rather have a Canon premium lens over a Sigma, etc.

I have several tractors, but the largest one is a Massey 2135.

Ann Arbor go figure the looney libatard town I should have figured it out that explains a lot.No on budds tractor Michigan Iron and equipment for my purchases.I can see you shopping at Aeschilmans they seem up your alley.Post the pics of all of your large tractors you use in Ann arbor love to see them.

 

[wrath]

Ann Arbor go figure the looney libatard town I should have figured it out that explains a lot.No on budds tractor Michigan Iron and equipment for my purchases.Post the pics of all of your large tractors you use in Ann arbor love to see them.

Are you a special kind of of stupid, or do you just pretend for us so we can laugh? I didn't say I lived in Ann Arbor, but maybe reading comprehension is something that you do not care for and just jump to conclusions that suit your narrative. The largest tractor I have that I use, as stated, is a Massey 2135, which by no means is a large tractor.

What made you go all the way up to Morrice, the home of scared sheep and Lainsburg's rejects, to buy a tractor if you're from "southern" Michigan?