knotter prob...what do you think?

[jimg]

Last night I fired the 'new to me' baler (NH326) up and looks like the inboard knotter is failing -- knot isnt being wiped off the billhook. Its never a happy moment when dark is coming on and youre under pressure to fix something not entirely familiar. From what I had time to really see well the wiper is certainly moving in the correct course and seems to also be exerting the correct pressure. As much as I could determine in the field all other adjustments seem sane. I did notice though that the inboard billhook had some considerable pitting/rust in the area where it hooks up into a shaft (in the crook right in front of the hinge pt). The outboard knotter was similar but not quite as bad. Also, as another data pt, the knot was always hung up right at the tip of the billhook...pinched right at the tip fairly close to coming off. Do you think the rust/rough would be enough to put the timing off enough to hang the knot? Im thinking right now it would be prudent to probably replace the billhooks just 1) get a good know part (w/i spec) and 2) preclude the rough surfaces from the problem mix. Honestly though Im not sure what tolerances these knotters will continue to work properly at. So may questions...

Otherwise everything else worked great!

 

[gfd_703]

Look at the roller on the other end of the bill hook. If it has a flat spot or does not turn freely, the bill hook will not open all the way. By the way the most common problems with square balers comes back to the tucker fingers and timing. If you do replace the bill hooks get the multi twine style so you can run plastic string if you want too.

 

[zzvyb6]

You should roll it over by hand. Empty out the twine and trip the knotter. The step where it wipes off the knot happens very quickly. You should be able to see the billhook open and the wiper arm slide across the hook. There's supposed to be considerable friction there, its not a gentle brushing. If its too weak, bend it to make the contact tighter.

Another thing to check is the twine tension: both out of the twine box and in the twine disks. As far as I know, there is no difference between billhooks for twine and sisal. The difference is in the twine tensions. That's it. Your manual should explain how to set it up for one or the other.

 

[jimg]

Got a good look at things last night. The inboard billhook has loads of rust/pitting so I think thats at least some of the problem. The wipers are running right close and any further bending would have them running right on the billhooks + it also looks like theyre exerting enough force to wipe the knot if it were in the right place. Sadly I didnt pay good enough attention to see the point at which the billhook opened...darn! Tension looked OK too in both places but did notice that there was a fair build up of stray strands in the inboard twine disk. Not sure if that matters...guessing not.

NH specs only one billhook for my baler and its supposed to handle sisal or poly.

Im on the road for a week and need it working when I get back so I dropped it off at the NH dealer this AM. Told him about the rust.pitting so I guess thats were theyll start. In the long run though I really need to understand how all the parts work together so I can make my own way...plus is pretty interesting.

BTW thanx for the suggestions/help!!

 

[gfd_703]

JD does offer 2 hooks, although all we sell anymore are the dual twine type.

 

[jimg]

I thought JD offered 3...sisal only, poly only and a combo. I almost wound up getting a JD 338 but that one like the Hesston slipped thru my fingers.

 

[zzvyb6]

For next time: The wiper arm actually should be in contact with the heel of the billhook. 5-15 lbs pressure is required to pull it across.

Also, it should take between 5 - 15 lbs of force on the billhook tongue to open the billhook jaws. Buy a small fish scale for your baler toolbox. These readings are all over the place on that machine.

 

[jimg]

Great thanx...yes a scale would be really handy and I was wondering where I might find one. I believe my baler manual recommended 8-12 # range for the wiper. Not sure at what range things would stop/continue working though. It seems balers are very picky and rather sloppy all at once. Right now it hard for me to know when sloppy is OK and when its isnt. Time and familiarity will cure that though.

While I dont know for sure I bet the wiper is touching at the heel Theres very little clearance thru its range of motion. See, these are things I dont look at right now and this sort of discussion really helps. The manual seems to assume a certain amt of pre-knowledge...unlike the JD baler manual.

As for opening the tongue...I did try that and was never able to. What determines how/when it opens? Is it fixed to open only at a certain point w/i its range of motion? Was never able to open it. Didnt try the working side and now wished I did. Guess I was too fixated w/ the non-working part.

 

[zzvyb6]

When you get the baler back from the dealer, start a notebook with lessons learned and the things to be checked. Get the scale and measure twine pull tension, billhook jaw force, tucker finger positions, needle lift positions thru the twine disks, plunger stop spring locations, etc.

My guess is that someone found a 'loose' nut in the knotter assembly and tightened it without realizing that its an adjustment, not a part falling out.

That's why the jaws are tight. Some guys will even run for years with one bad tie. I also recommend that you clean out the knotter drive area after every use with an air blow gun. You will finf loose, worn or about-to-break parts, rusty springs that no longer work right, a bent this or that, shear pins gone, tires with nails in them, chain master link cotter pins missing. The things to be fixed on your day off. Same for the mower.

If it still doesn't tie reliably, call in, I have a lot of experience with twine knotter mechanics.

BTW: Check this out:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...34-baler-knotter-video.html?highlight=knotter

 

[jimg]

Stopped by the dealer last night to find out what they had done -- bill hook and knife arm got replaced. Not surprised about the bill hook but I think the knife arm really didnt need replacing. OTOH it now threads on both sides reliably. The bill hook was pretty pitted/rusty on the inner surface + the wheel at the heel was in rough shape. Ill post some pics in the next couple days of the replaced parts.

Appreciate all the help on this one....I learned a lot. Also having the bad parts to inspect was instructive. I think when it comes to fixing up the outboard knotter I can do that myself.

 

[jimg]

#1 is rusty/rough area in bill hook crook and #2 is wheel on back w/ lots of flats & rusty spots. I hooked the baler up Sat morning and threaded it.

It looks like the weather is going to be good enough to hay later in the week.

 

[mark.r]

Just caught up reading this, Jim, keep us updated on how the baling goes.

 

[zzvyb6]

Looks like the billhook and finger were ok. Heel cam wheel may have to be filed to round out the flat spots. BUT:

My guess is that the adjustment tension was lost due to a rusted spring or the nut just walked off. Check to see if there are now double nuts or a cotter pin and a castle nut at the adjustment location.

See attached image. You can still stick a rod down there to see what the finger opening tension on both billhooks is.

Save those parts, they will live to see action again someday !!!

 

[jimg]

Id like to understand how the billhook roller interacts w/ the cam finger. The part Im calling the finger is the one which is roughly L shaped and is tension adjustable via a nut/spring (off the left side of each frame). My NH baler manual calls it the billhook cam but the parts list doesnt list it as such (in fact I cant find it in the parts list). To me it looks like it keeps the tongue shut until the cycle progresses to the point where the knot is wiped. Since theres a spring involved it must have some range of movement as the roller contacts it and that must dictate the 15#s mentioned earlier. At any rate, my NH manual doesnt go into that detail and the JD manual completely ignores it. My dealer is telling me that if the knot comes off the billhook prematurely the tension should be increased. My baler manual says that too much tension causes flat spots on the billhook roller (the old one has this problem). So it seems that the knotter works even when the adjustment is too much. Am I on the right track w/ its function and what else am I missing?

 

[zzvyb6]

If the twine tension (set in the twine bale box), is too loose, the knot can fall off the billhook during bale compression by the plunger. This is just a friction issue that you can check by hand or with a fish scale.

This is something to watch for in slow motion. Turn it over by hand without any hay or twine loaded. Trip the cycle by hand and spin it over until the needle lift starts. Then carefully turn the flywheel a degree (angle) or so at a time to watch the billhook spin, the billhook finger open and the wiper arm traverse the billhook. This 'ballet' happens very quickly and is best arranged to happen in both knotters at the same exact point in the cycle. I don't agree that the manuals omit these details. My 14T manual describes this in excrutiating detail.

Now that its warmer out, I ought to drag out the baler and video the knotter action detail in better perspective than my last YouTube experiment....

 

[slowzuki]

I know mine won't tie if there is much rust, the twine will hang on the rough patch. Replacing solved that for you I guess!

 

[jimg]

I know mine won't tie if there is much rust, the twine will hang on the rough patch. Replacing solved that for you I guess!

Yes, changing the billhook solved the problem and Im sure it was the rust which caused the hangup.

 

[jimg]

Just caught up reading this, Jim, keep us updated on how the baling goes.

It went really well! I made 1100 (60#) bales this w/e which are all in the barn now. Only a couple small problems: 1) during the 1st 100 bales the outboard knotter would occasionally miss a tie (problem corrected itself after some run time) and 2) a loose sprocket threw a chain (easy fix as no parts were missing or damaged).

This baler can really suck down the hay! Im sure it could have benefited from more than the 60+hp I was supplying it. I sure wouldnt run it behind a smaller tractor!!

 

[mark.r]

It went really well! I made 1100 (60#) bales this w/e which are all in the barn now. Only a couple small problems: 1) during the 1st 100 bales the outboard knotter would occasionally miss a tie (problem corrected itself after some run time) and 2) a loose sprocket threw a chain (easy fix as no parts were missing or damaged).

This baler can really suck down the hay! Im sure it could have benefited from more than the 60+hp I was supplying it. I sure wouldnt run it behind a smaller tractor!!

That's good to hear. Aprox. how many acres did you bale? What tractor were you running again?

 

[jimg]

Yes, I was really glad the baler performed well. I was busy enough w/o baler problems. I worked my front field which is 15ac using a TN75.