knotting problems with JD 14T baler

dan_d · Jun 17, 2008

Hi all,
First off, just like to say that I'm glad i found this site, tons of usefull info!

Anyways, I seem to have gotten myself into a much bigger project than I anticipated... When we moved into our house 4 years ago, there was a baler out in the field under a (very shredded) tarp, which I finally got the urge to pull out earlier this year. I've been tinkering with it and have managed to get one of the knotters working perfect every time, but the other one simply won't tie a knot. I've watched it and played around with a few things (replaced worn billhook, adjusted tucker finger) but everytime the billhook goes around, the "front" piece of twine gets missed. See http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6656.JPG I've also noticed something else rather peculiar with the intermittent gears which is also seen in that picture (and http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6654.JPG) where the offending billhook actually starts turning a little bit before the other! I find this rather odd since both intermittent gears are keyed so it's not like they could really be out of alignment (unless someone replaced one of them at some point and it wasn't exactly identical?) but that's the only thing i could see that could make one billhook do its little dance before the other! Am I missing a piece of the puzzle?

You can see the difference between the two billhooks in the following pics:
http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6646.JPG and http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6648.JPG

and a tiny bit later on the same knotting cycle...

http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6649.JPG and http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6650.JPG

I think the twine angle is the real culprit right now, since the twine is in its final position well before either billhook starts to turn... I thought I adjusted the tucker finger accodring to the manual, but maybe not? (the pic in the PDF (pg 28) is really dark, can't see what the "twine guide" is?) SHoudl the finger catch the twine right at the very tip, or further into the middle? The angle on the working knotter is always steeper, even before the tucker fingers grab it, so maybe there's something else i need to adjust? I checked the twine tension (by pulling out of the needle tip) and got ~13lbs on both sides, which is within spec...

Any insight would be hugely appreciated!

Thanks,
Dan

dan_d · Jun 17, 2008

Oh, and just to set a frame of reference, until I pulled this beast out of hibernation , I had never touched a baler before in my life, nor had i done anything to my tractor but put diesel in it...

I'm a city boy who got dragged out to the country by his wife and her horses! It's fun, but a heck of a lot of work!

DD

born2ride · Jun 17, 2008

DanD

Its hard for me to see the difference in the hooks. I can take a pick of mine for you later when i get home. Just let me know.

I dont know too much on these bales I only used this one once last year and twice this year.
i did find this info which help me..
From other member posts
"You should roll it over by hand. Empty out the twine and trip the knotter. The step where it wipes off the knot happens very quickly. You should be able to see the billhook open and the wiper arm slide across the hook. There's supposed to be considerable friction there, its not a gentle brushing. If its too weak, bend it to make the contact tighter."

"Look at the roller on the other end of the bill hook. If it has a flat spot or does not turn freely, the bill hook will not open all the way. By the way the most common problems with square balers comes back to the tucker fingers and timing"

dan_d · Jun 17, 2008

thanks for the tips!
now that you mention it, i remember seein that quote about the wiper arm before but forgot about it. my wiper arm does not contact the billhook, so i'll have to do some bending i think... although I'm rather surprised that the arm should actually rub the billhook... wouldn't that wear out the hook (or wiper arm) permaturely?
the billhook is brand new so i doubt it has a flat spot on the roller already!

zzvyb6 · Jun 17, 2008

See if this helps in the interim. Make sure the billhook finger is open when the billhook starts to turn. It opens to accept the twine passed to it from the needles and tucker fingers.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/a...hlight=knotter

I put a video of a 14T knotter drive on You Tube. Search for it and see if it triggers any thoughts. I'll be dragging mine out of the shed any day now. Then I can get the sequences to include the billhook threading.

zzvyb6 · Jun 17, 2008

I can clearly see that the billhooks are out of position when they terminate. (see attached photo) Question is why ? Looks like they are one tooth off relative to the intermittent gear start position.

1) Knotter drive shaft is bent (caused by a previous STB).

2) The keyway in the knotter drive is chipped / key is worn or broken, causing the phase delay. Can you grab the intermittent gears and rotate them by hand so they are back to being in a similar position relative to each other?

3) Is the knotter frame mounting bracket bent? A rear view of bothe knotters ought to show if ther is a frame mispositioned.

4) Is there a tooth broken off from the intermittent gear, thus starting the billhook rotation late?

5) Is the knotter drive stop detent mispositioned so that the intermittent gears are not returning to home postion properly? You can check this in #2 by rotating them back to Home position by hand.

6) is there a pin in the billhook to drive gear broken or missing? This suggests that the billhook position is out relative to the drive gear.
I'll see if I can get you some pix of mine later today....

dan_d · Jun 17, 2008

link doesn't work?

I saw your youtube vid, thanks! I'll keep an eye on the billhook to make sure it opens at the same time as the working one...

oh, and i updated the first pair of 'comparison' pics with captions to describe what i see as the cause of my problem.

i guess what i'm trying to figure out is what controls that front peice of twine that comes from the needle at knot time... on the good one it seems that the twine is much closer to the billhook right from the get-go... is there anything other than the last flake of hay & needle positioning that would affect that end of the knot?

Dan

dan_d · Jun 17, 2008

guess i was writing at the same time as you!

anyways, sorry I must not have explained the images well enough... the pair you copied show the billhooks just starting to knot. definitely the second one is starting first, but when they terminate, they are both in the correct position. the other pair of images shows the billhooks just bbefore they start to move. you're right that they are about 1-tooth off in the set you copied, but i didn't think to check if the key was chipped/broken! i know for sure the one that is not knotting is correctly keyed (oddly enough) , since i can see the cutout in the shaft and the gear line up, and this one also bolts into the trip dog. I couldn't easily see the key on the other one.... i had a miserable time getting that gear to move last time i wnated to get access to the outboard (working) knotter... took an aweful lot of heat to get it to budge at all!

it definitely won't move by hand right now, but i'll try to verify the keyhole tonite

I don't believe the frame is bent, but i'll check.

not sure what the "knotter drive stop detent" is?

I'll double-check the billhook pin since I had to remove it to repalce the billhook, but i know i put it in there.. just whether it stayed or not is the question

Thanks for all the ideas!

Dan

zzvyb6 said:
I can clearly see that the billhooks are out of position when they terminate. (see attached photo) Question is why ? Looks like they are one tooth off relative to the intermittent gear start position.

1) Knotter drive shaft is bent (caused by a previous STB).

2) The keyway in the knotter drive is chipped / key is worn or broken, causing the phase delay. Can you grab the intermittent gears and rotate them by hand so they are back to being in a similar position relative to each other?

3) Is the knotter frame mounting bracket bent? A rear view of bothe knotters ought to show if ther is a frame mispositioned.

4) Is there a tooth broken off from the intermittent gear, thus starting the billhook rotation late?

5) Is the knotter drive stop detent mispositioned so that the intermittent gears are not returning to home postion properly? You can check this in #2 by rotating them back to Home position by hand.

6) is there a pin in the billhook to drive gear broken or missing? This suggests that the billhook position is out relative to the drive gear.
I'll see if I can get you some pix of mine later today....

dan_d · Jun 19, 2008

So the driveshaft & knotter frame don't seem to be bent... nor are there any missing teeth on the gears. Both keys are present and the gears don't spin on the shaft, so i guess there's only two options left: shaft is twisted but still straight (wouldn't i be able to see that?) or one intermittent gear was replaced by a newer/older one whose keyhole is slightly offset from the other?? Neither prosect is very appealing to me right now, since jdparts lists the intermittent gears at ~$360 and $500!!

I noticed that the inboard end of the hay flake was sticking out more than the outer (working side) one, so i tightened up the twine tension a bit and it seems to have helped... the one time I tripped the knotter it actually tied a knot, but then the twine got twisted around the billhook! marginally close i suppose, but no where near useable yet! eesh....

I am assuming that if I take the knotter shaft off, all the square key notches should line up, and if they do i guess i start looking for a dead 14T for "new" gears?? My (limited) understanding of the whole mechanism seems to have ruled out anything else that could cause the billhooks to be out of sync with eachother? Or maybe there's something else I could do to compensate somehow for this? (the problematic billhook is running 'ahead' of the working one...)

Thanks again!

DD

zzvyb6 · Jun 19, 2008

There may still be another option that can get you going: The intermittent drive gear is positioned by the bracket that locates it relative to the bale case deck. Put some washers under it to advance it forward in time/rotation. Too much advance will cause some hardship for the billhook tongue to open in time, but what the heck. You can also slow the other gear down to match them. I still think a picture of a rear view of the knotter action during key motions is the answer.

Also, you can reset the timing of the "late" gear by removing the key altogether and putting in a set screw with pointed tip and a drilled crater in the shaft. The knotter won't know what happened. Or, drill a hold in the gear and shaft and stuff a pin into it. WTF ....

dan_d · Jun 19, 2008

haha i guess you're right, something a little more drastic might do the trick! what's the worst that could happen, it won't tie anymore??

I mean, really, we got the baler for free when we moved in so it's not that big of a loss!

by view of the rear, you mean like this?
http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6654.JPG
http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6664.JPG

I suppose a video would be ideal if I can get the right perspective...

Moving the position of the knotter is a great idea, thanks! never occurred to me that it's just as movable as anything else; guess i just needed a different perspective on things! I suppose this old equipment sometimes needs a new way of thinking...

i was getting ready to give up on it for a while there since the neighbour offered to sell me his old baler that's "been stored inside its whole life and just needs a bit of WD40 at the beginning of every season"... doesn't help that hay season is literally around the corner! That'll teach me to get my *** in gear earlier next time (i hope!)...

Cheers,
Dan

Rara Avis · Jun 19, 2008

John Deere - John Deere Publishing

This manual has a complete debugger for your knotter...

Hay and Forage Harvesting
"Real world" evaluations of the many different ways to improve hay and forage harvesting and storage efficiency.
Book ｩ 2004 FMO14105NC US$ 40.95
Instructor Guide FMO14505T US$ 52.95
Student Guide FMO14605W US$ 17.95

zzvyb6 · Jun 19, 2008

I'd call those pictures front view. The rear view would show the relative heights of the parts, and the rotations. I'm presuming that the intermitent gear is riding tightly against the billhook drive gear. If not, there are usually a lot of unused shims stashed on the shaft so you can shim it out.

With the price of hay as high as it is, its worth your efforts to make your own and sell the excess to your neighbors. This is a chance to have your cake and eat it too. As a business, you will need a welder, air compressor, wrenches, torches, new delivery truck and trailer, boat, dog and a ****** clad hay helper. Works for me....

dan_d · Jun 20, 2008

hehe. i've been poking at those knotters for so long I just started thinking that was the "front"

Here we are... Or is that too low?
http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6664.JPG

Yes, the drive gear is riding flush with the intermitent gear.

And as much as I'd love to be in a situation to sell hay, we barely get enough to feed our own horses as it is, and we're getting big (like 60x204 indoor riding facility big) into the horse boarding and lessons so we are definitely going to be on the receiveing end of your hay business! You're a little far from me, but if you're delivering with the ******-clad hay helper tho, I might consider it

Tonight is 'fix the wagon' night, and tomorrow is 'fix the baler' day, so i'll let you know on monday how things went... but I fully intend to drill a new hole into that knotter shaft if that's what it takes to get 'er goin!

Thanks again for all the tips,
DD

born2ride · Jun 20, 2008

zzvyb6 said:
I'm presuming that the intermitent gear is riding tightly against the billhook drive gear. If not, there are usually a lot of unused shims stashed on the shaft so you can shim it out. .

this has been a good thead i have been following it closely and learning. but zzvyb6 you mentioned shims which bring me too...
Have a parts baler was thinking of taking off the knotters. cleaning them up and paint but i have not found a good source of information on set up and shimming.

i did look through the pdf you emailed me.did i miss it?
dand

there is a few parts on ebay of the 14t. if you have not checked.
this is the most i have seen in awhile
ps sorry to highjack thread on you...

dan_d · Jun 20, 2008

heh np.
thing with buying parts on ebay is I want to know for sure that that part is what's broken before i replace it... so i'm more than happy to make non-lethal modifications if necessary for the time being. and it's cheaper too!

as for the shims, i think the JDparts book just says to use as many as need to get a tight fit.... hopefully that's correct, cause that's what i did anyways!

zzvyb6 · Jun 20, 2008

Funny how life goes. My neighbor just blew up his JD baler somehow. The plunger stop was all caked up with fungus and failed to engage. Broke both needles and a knotter frame. Not sure he will want to fix it, but may be out looking for parts as I write this.

I've gotten stuff from eBay for replacement parts. Just look at the feedback. Buying local is handy because you will see what's involved, get it immediately and can get to know what other stuff they have parts-wise.

Have still not seen a view from the rear of the knotter frame. I want to see the home position of the intermitent gears, the positions of the cotter pins (to see if they line up), the angles of the billhooks and the look of the billhooks when the billhook finger opens.

What I was thinking is that perhaps what happened is that the billhook drive gear is off by 1 tooth. This means pushing out the roll pin, advancing or retarding the gear, and reassembling. That would explain why the billhook rotations are not the same at knot release....

dan_d · Jun 23, 2008

hahaha, i'm sorry, I didn't notice I copied/pasted the link wrong...
Try this one:
http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6663.JPG
and here's the home position of the intermittent gears:
http://www.dearaujo.net/pics/14T/IMG_6652.JPG
Which to me seems like the inboard one is 1 tooth ahead.

I had a close look on the weekend and it looks like the previous owner was somewhat aware of the problem since the inboard needle is also a bit advanced. But this has now turned into a fall/winter project, since I was *finally* able to get it working on saturday!

As per your suggestion, I put a spacer between the knotter and the little bracket that it bolts onto to delay the engagement of the knotter a little. It is still advanced now even tho I put a decent-sized nut in as a spacer, but it is close enough that the twine gets into position just as the billhook starts to turn! Can't move it any further since the needle is cutting it pretty close to the twine disks at this point... Made 15 bales without missing one so i'm hoping that is a good sign

I think the long term solution is to re-align the gear by putting a set-screw or something similar to turn the intermittent gear back far enough to get everything syncronized again.

One other thing I did notice tho, is that the inboard side of the hay flake comes back further into the plnuger chute than the outboard side.... Would that just be an uneven bale tension thing, or do the hay-dogs have anything to do with that? I can't find anything in the user's guide about maintaining the hay dogs.... Can I only access them from the hay (exit) chute when there is no hay in there? or can i remove a panel to get at them?

Thanks again for all the help!
Dan

zzvyb6 · Jun 23, 2008

The needles are mounted onto the needle pickup frame by two bolts on a rocker mount. The needle tips can therefore be moved fore/aft by setting the bolts + and - to get them to just brush by the twine disks. Note that they should also be adjusted laterally to be in firm contact with the knotter frame. This keeps them from bouncing into the way of other parts in their travel stroke.

Now that you have something working, check all the springs in the system. This means the tucker finger drive, the plunger stops (underneath the bale case) and the knotter drive stop detent. Worn springs in the plunger stop did some expensive damage to my neighbors machine last week. Since they were feeble, the hay chaff got caught in the mechanism. When he got a wet hay plug, the needles got caught and the stops were not in place. Oops...

The only thing remaining to do is check the porcelain twine guides (they usually have groves cut into them that catches and stalls the twine, the plunger wedges (keeps the plunger running square to prevent the cutoff knives from locking into each other, and the needle lift link shear pin. If its worn or bent, the problems that result will be expensive.

Good job ! Now figure out how much your time is worth and get involved in other restorations....

dan_d · Jul 7, 2008

700 bales and counting!

Ok, they're a little bit shorter than normal bales since my wife likes having them a bit lighter, but its still a good start to this baler's second life!

I'm hoping to get another 700 by the end of this week, assuming the weather co-operates of course...

Actually, i'm not sure exactly how many since the bale counter doesn't work quite right... you know something's wrong when your counter says 222 bales *after* it said 284 last time you checked!

Ran into a little (ok alot) trouble on friday with the wiper arm not wiping the knot off properly, but got that sorted out just before the end of the first roll of twine, which caused another set of headaches because the new roll was slightly thicker and the twine was slipping off the billhook during rotation! After a bunch of playing around, we ended up reducing the spacing I had originally put in the knotter frrame bracket to compensate for the offset intermittent gear just a little bit since that spacer changed the angle at which the twine 'hit' the billhook. Since then it missed only 1 out of 200 bales, and it was actually the 'good' knotter that just randomly missed one.

One thing i'm having a little trouble with is getting the twine to be evenly tight on both sides... for some reason the one side is almost always a bit looser. Is the bale tension primarily controlled by the base case springs or the twine tension, or a mix of both? I noticed that there's some bolts that ride on an arced bracket that seem to control some bale case movement as well... do those have to be loose when I tighten/loosen the springs? (i haven't been losening them so far...) Right now i've just been of the opinion of "the d*mn thing works, don't mess with it!" but i'd like to tidy a few things up now that it's gotten a little more reliable.

DD

P.S: Do I need to use the synthetic SAE140 gearoil they sell at the Deere dealership, or do other places sell other (less expensive) stuff that will do the trick?