Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK?

   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK? #11  
This came up because apparently some valves overheat when operated for even a
few minutes at a time, including the one made by WR Long.

Any undersized valve is going to get hot. I think that what WRLong is concerned about is that they use
aluminum bodies with their diverters and their AUX valves. Thermal expansion of aluminum monobody
valves with steel spools are going to leak internally more due to increased clearances.

I once had a Kubota with an OEM 3-spool monoblock AUX valve, but it was made of cast steel (by Gannon).
All-steel valves should handle the heat better.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK?
  • Thread Starter
#12  
Just for clarity, it's not a Kubota option on the MX5100. I had an MX5100 and checked into it.

The WR Long install is pretty easy to DIY.

On my MX5100 I've run a pair of hoses from one of the rear remotes, with flat-faced couplers up front. But I am considering selling the MX and getting something with a cab in the 50-60 HP range, and thinking about what equipment I need to put on it and how much that will cost. I'm leaning toward 2 rears and 3rd Function up front.

Surprising to me that the majority of used tractors I've looked at on-line (Tractor House, etc.) have no remotes. Maybe about 25% have 1 remote, and hardly any with 2 or more in the USA. (More people run snowblowers in Canada, and those machines often have 2 rear remotes.) It all depends what you use your tractor for, but for my purposes remote hydraulics is essential.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK? #13  
On my MX5100 I've run a pair of hoses...am considering getting something with a cab in the 50-60 HP range, ... am leaning toward 2 rears and 3rd Function up front.

Surprising to me that the majority of used tractors I've looked at on-line (Tractor House, etc.) have no remotes. Maybe about 25% have 1 remote, and hardly any with 2 or more in the USA. (More people run snowblowers in Canada, and those machines often have 2 rear remotes.) It all depends what you use your tractor for, but for my purposes remote hydraulics is essential.

Me too. I think you'll find the larger the tractor the more likely it is to have additional remotes. Look at 70 and 80 horse models. For example most of the JD5075 showing on TractorHouse have one remote and most of the JD5085 have two remotes & often a pair more mid outlets. People who just need a loader tractor or bush hog 90% of their use hours have less need for remotes. Also, so many of the tractors on TractorHouse for sale are not really what I would call "used" in that they have very low hours and are being sold by a dealer. My guess is that it comes down to dollars. Remotes are expensive additions and half the customers do not even know ... well anyway, I'm thinking dollars and sales.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK? #14  
For whatever it may be worth, I ran an hydraulic motor driven 5' brush cutter with 3rd ftn hoses on the FEL of an 81 horse MF2660 for a while. Only reason I traded off the cutter was my tractor did not provide enough flow to keep the cutter from clogging nuisances, plus "one track mind" hydraulics that shuts off the cutter every time you move the FEL. One thing learned in that educational experience was that hydraulic fluid gets hot as hades when you run continuous duty motors and other devices, esp in hot weather. If everything else had been perfect (which it was not) I would have installed a large oil cooler in the return hose. I think you will find the PHD OK with the MX5100 because your "continuous duty" is not all that long drilling a hole, more bursty really as the Messick people mentioned. Be sure you have large enough hoses up there for the flow you need. AND don't expect to be able to raise and lower that PHD while powering the auger. Your open center hydraulics and absence of expensive flow dividers, etc. mean you have what I call "one track mind" hydraulics, as most of us have.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK?
  • Thread Starter
#15  
I can control the FEL fully while powering the auger off the rear remote, I hadn't really thought about that. And yes, I have noticed the fluid heats up, it isn't an issue for me because our ground is rocky. I drill for a bit, then there are always pauses while I'll poke around by hand in the hole to see what size rock is blocking progess. The PHD takes out a lot of the work, but I still spend a fair amount of time with a rock bar for most of the holes, and the tractor is usually idling off to the side, or even shut down if the rocks are bad.

Thinking about this issue, maybe I should keep those hoses for the new tractor so that I can run the hydraulic PHD from the rear remotes instead of the 3rd function valve. I like having full control while running the auger.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK? #16  
This needs some discussion. I apologize in advance for the length & appreciate your patience. Let me describe what I think you have and why you do not have full control over you loader while drilling with the PHD. Of course I may be missing something and if so please set me straight after I finish. You have an open center hydraulic system on the MX5100 as most tractors do. You have one hydraulic pump that powers everything except for your power steering and your 3pt lift. Total of 3 pumps. Your loader control valve and anything your loader does under hydraulic control (aside from gravity drop) gets hydraulic flow via "power beyond" from your main hydraulic pump. Your remotes in the rear are also fed from your main hydraulic pump. That entire system (off the main hydraulic pump, putting aside power steering and 3pt lift pumps as they are out of this picture) is open center -- meaning that when you move a position control, that valve opens and flow goes to that controlled destination only and all other destinations in the chain wait.
I'll mention typical circumstances first and then possible exceptions. Typical circumstances are: While you are raising the FEL you have no ability to simultaneously curl the bucket and lift bucket tip load by curling. They can happen very close together but not simultaneously. When you forceably dump the bucket (for example lifting the tractor front end off the ground) you cannot simultaneously, forceably, lower the FEL frame and lift the tractor both with the bucket tip forced down dumping and with frame force downward. When you use the "3rd function" to close a pinch bucket clamshell (or to drive an hydraulic motor) you cannot do that simultaneously with raising the loader nor forcing it down. In effect, with one main hyd pump feeding everything, the hyd system has what I call a one track mind.
I hasten to say that gravity gets into the picture and often makes you think you have simultaneous hydraulic forced control 2 places. For example you can dump the bucket (assisted by gravity) while simultaneously raising the FEL frame. That gives the illusion of 2 concurrent hyd controlled actions. You can lower the FEL frame with gravity while doing any ONE of many other things under hyd power. There are of course many other examples.
Exceptions: Some manufacturers devise ways to compromise one-track-mind hydraulics. One is to introduce a flow control splitter or diversion valve that splits the main hyd pump output and sends X% to one destination while sending Y= (100% -X%) toward another destination without either becoming zero. That flow control mechanism is (what I consider a complex option) available with some brands, notably New Holland, some high-end Kubotas, options on larger Deere, etc. Of course almost any mod to hydraulic plumbing can be had for a price (factory or 3rd party) and none of this is cheap.
I'm betting you can lower your FEL by gravity while driving your PHD auger but that you cannot pick up the FEL while augering. If you can simultaneously do both, then a flow control valve has been installed in the picture and the two actions (FEL lift and augering) are sharing the flow -- the FEL raises more slowly if you are augering and vice-versa. That has to be the case because you only have one main hydraulic pump serving all these functions.
Most of the time we are happy with one-track-mind hydraulics because gravity is a great helper in many examples or because going back and forth between various powered hydraulic functions isn't too bad of an interruption.
If you understand my description, please tell me if you have a flow control valve involved (a means of simultaneous sharing of the single flow) or how it is, otherwise, that you simultaneously do multiple hydraulic powered actions with a single pump.
What a mouthful -- your comment ?
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK? #17  
This needs some discussion. I apologize in advance for the length & appreciate your patience. Let me describe what I think you have and why you do not have full control over you loader while drilling with the PHD. Of course I may be missing something and if so please set me straight after I finish. You have an open center hydraulic system on the MX5100 as most tractors do. You have one hydraulic pump that powers everything except for your power steering and your 3pt lift. Total of 3 pumps. Your loader control valve and anything your loader does under hydraulic control (aside from gravity drop) gets hydraulic flow via "power beyond" from your main hydraulic pump. Your remotes in the rear are also fed from your main hydraulic pump. That entire system (off the main hydraulic pump, putting aside power steering and 3pt lift pumps as they are out of this picture) is open center -- meaning that when you move a position control, that valve opens and flow goes to that controlled destination only and all other destinations in the chain wait. I'll mention typical circumstances first and then possible exceptions. Typical circumstances are: While you are raising the FEL you have no ability to simultaneously curl the bucket and lift bucket tip load by curling. They can happen very close together but not simultaneously. When you forceably dump the bucket (for example lifting the tractor front end off the ground) you cannot simultaneously, forceably, lower the FEL frame and lift the tractor both with the bucket tip forced down dumping and with frame force downward. When you use the "3rd function" to close a pinch bucket clamshell (or to drive an hydraulic motor) you cannot do that simultaneously with raising the loader nor forcing it down. In effect, with one main hyd pump feeding everything, the hyd system has what I call a one track mind. I hasten to say that gravity gets into the picture and often makes you think you have simultaneous hydraulic forced control 2 places. For example you can dump the bucket (assisted by gravity) while simultaneously raising the FEL frame. That gives the illusion of 2 concurrent hyd controlled actions. You can lower the FEL frame with gravity while doing any ONE of many other things under hyd power. There are of course many other examples. Exceptions: Some manufacturers devise ways to compromise one-track-mind hydraulics. One is to introduce a flow control splitter or diversion valve that splits the main hyd pump output and sends X% to one destination while sending Y= (100% -X%) toward another destination without either becoming zero. That flow control mechanism is (what I consider a complex option) available with some brands, notably New Holland, some high-end Kubotas, options on larger Deere, etc. Of course almost any mod to hydraulic plumbing can be had for a price (factory or 3rd party) and none of this is cheap. I'm betting you can lower your FEL by gravity while driving your PHD auger but that you cannot pick up the FEL while augering. If you can simultaneously do both, then a flow control valve has been installed in the picture and the two actions (FEL lift and augering) are sharing the flow -- the FEL raises more slowly if you are augering and vice-versa. That has to be the case because you only have one main hydraulic pump serving all these functions. Most of the time we are happy with one-track-mind hydraulics because gravity is a great helper in many examples or because going back and forth between various powered hydraulic functions isn't too bad of an interruption. If you understand my description, please tell me if you have a flow control valve involved (a means of simultaneous sharing of the single flow) or how it is, otherwise, that you simultaneously do multiple hydraulic powered actions with a single pump. What a mouthful -- your comment ?

What about when you're digging into a pile of dirt? I can move forward with my HST transmission on my Kubota BX25, while at the same time curling the FEL Bucket upward to fill it with dirt.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK?
  • Thread Starter
#18  
JWR - I am "'pretty sure" that I use multiple hydraulic functions simultaneously often, like every day. Maybe I should confirm and then make a video.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK? #19  
Most modern loader valves are plumbed funky internally. In series & parallel or something. So you can lift & curl at the same time. However that only exists in the loader valve body & doesn't permit the same functionality on the power beyond loop.
 
   / Kubota 3rd Function Valve: Continuous Use OK? #20  
Most modern loader valves are plumbed funky internally. In series & parallel or something. So you can lift & curl at the same time. However that only exists in the loader valve body & doesn't permit the same functionality on the power beyond loop.

Correct.

Loader valve on all modern tractors I have been on allow for all functions to operate.

MX also doesnt have a separate hydraulic pump for 3PH. It goes Pump > Loader Valve > Remotes > 3PH.

IF you start the tractor up, and raise the 3PH lever, then immediately (before the 3PH implement is raised all the way) you grab and raise the loader, the 3PH will "pause" its lift while raising the FEL. Once you are done raising the FEL and let off the stick, the 3PH will resume its raise.
 

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