Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods?

   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #21  
The first pic makes my eye twitch. Trying to figure out the second pic. What are the link(s) on each side of the top link and what is broken?
Those are two additional links, to prevent the backhoe from pushing the 3 pt hitch up when digging. Also, part of the reason of why it failed. Whoever used that backhoe, put all the top links basically in the same top link mount, concentrating all the digging forces there.

Maybe these two pictures help clear things up. It basically ripped the top link mount apart. You can see the broken welds (red circle) and the lock for the draft control (blue arrow). To unlock, the lock flips outwards and lets the top link mount pivot in and out.

IMG_0846 (2).jpg
IMG_0847.jpg
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #22  
Mr. Ignorant here....

I'm pretty sure both (IH) tractors we have here (444, 1066) have draft control. Never have need to use them since tractors are essentially large lawn mowers.

So for those not well versed with what is exactly happening if the draft control "gets in the way"....

What is exactly happening?

I THINK I understand that the draft control LIFTS the 3-point so if you are plowing and the plow starts to dive deeper into the ground, the draft control lifts it back up to keep that from happening.

Presuming that to be reasonable and accurate, the 3-point only moves so far. What's happening to make this a dangerous situation?

(side note, tractors like I said are lawn mowers, my backhoe is hard mounted so I don't have this concern/exposure so am trying to learn)
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #23  
Those are two additional links, to prevent the backhoe from pushing the 3 pt hitch up when digging. Also, part of the reason of why it failed. Whoever used that backhoe, put all the top links basically in the same top link mount, concentrating all the digging forces there.

Maybe these two pictures help clear things up. It basically ripped the top link mount apart. You can see the broken welds (red circle) and the lock for the draft control (blue arrow). To unlock, the lock flips outwards and lets the top link mount pivot in and out.

View attachment 771094 View attachment 771093
Thanks for clarifying! My eyes were seeing the white areas as sealant residue of some sort rather than broken welds. The welds do look rather paltry.
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #24  
Mr. Ignorant here....

I'm pretty sure both (IH) tractors we have here (444, 1066) have draft control. Never have need to use them since tractors are essentially large lawn mowers.

So for those not well versed with what is exactly happening if the draft control "gets in the way"....

What is exactly happening?

I THINK I understand that the draft control LIFTS the 3-point so if you are plowing and the plow starts to dive deeper into the ground, the draft control lifts it back up to keep that from happening.

Presuming that to be reasonable and accurate, the 3-point only moves so far. What's happening to make this a dangerous situation?

(side note, tractors like I said are lawn mowers, my backhoe is hard mounted so I don't have this concern/exposure so am trying to learn)
rScotty explains the consequences of an activated draft control very well in post #14 above.
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #25  
Mr. Ignorant here....

I'm pretty sure both (IH) tractors we have here (444, 1066) have draft control. Never have need to use them since tractors are essentially large lawn mowers.

So for those not well versed with what is exactly happening if the draft control "gets in the way"....

What is exactly happening?

I THINK I understand that the draft control LIFTS the 3-point so if you are plowing and the plow starts to dive deeper into the ground, the draft control lifts it back up to keep that from happening.

Presuming that to be reasonable and accurate, the 3-point only moves so far. What's happening to make this a dangerous situation?

(side note, tractors like I said are lawn mowers, my backhoe is hard mounted so I don't have this concern/exposure so am trying to learn)
You have the understanding of how it works basically correct. The automatic draft control responds to top link compression by lifting the 3pt arms when the load on the implement is increased.
That increased load happens when a plow either goes deeper or hits a rock or root - all of those cause the top link to be put into compression.

At the tractor, the top link connection which seems so rigid is actually a very heavily built pivoting spring mount that triggers the auto draft control when the pivoting mount moves a fraction of an inch. It takes tons of compression to trigger the automatic draft control, but when it does, the reaction to raise the 3pt arms takes place in an instant. Usually raising the arms an inch or two will allow the implement to rise enough to clear the obstruction. As soon as the plow clears the obstruction it returns to the previous depth and all is well.

But with a backhoe pushing down to lift the tractor - as long as there is downforce on the bucket the compression on the top link can't go away, and the arms will continue to raise until they are all the way up. Crushing anything in the way against the back of the tractor. The lift arms go up in a series of violent jerks as the auto draft control works at max pressure in conjunjction with the 3pt relief valve. Everything bounces, shakes, and pops as the arms raise and crush the intervening parts. The draft control lift system cycles so fast it sounds like a a machine gun. This all happens so suddenly and is so violent that it is hard to keep your wits working.

As the lift arms raise under unusual pressure they may only move an inch at a time but they do so several times a second. That's necessary when plowing of course - which is the purpose of the auto draft control in the first place. And it is why the lifting force is to unusually high and the motion so abrupt.

When a 3pt backhoe is fitted between the lift arms and top link it is compressed right along with everything else in the way as the arms lift. It's not uncommon to break the top link mount and bending the top link as well as squashing everything in between arms and top link.

Safety strut systems are one answer, and are simply beefed up extra struts that are stout enough to keep the lift arms from raising. That requires some serious steel. The problem there is that the forces are so extreme that if the strut holds, something else breaks.

Hope the explanation helps. It isn't a problem if you just remember to turn auto draft control off.
If you do a lot of backhoe and little plowing it would make sense to disable the auto draft control completely. Draft contro is a feature big Ag uses, but most of us do not.

rScotty
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #26  
I have never had anything with draft control. I understand what it accomplishes, but based on rScotty’s description i got curious about how its doing it. Is the draft control itself a valve, or a small cylinder making pressure which shifts the main 3 pt valve? I got curious about nuts and bolts all of a sudden.

The pics yall are posting are great for examples. It definitely seems like some combination of proper bracing and operator discretion will get you there, and the pics give some clue as to the forces that need to be handled. Good stuff in this thread. 👍
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #27  
I find this interesting. I can read and understand there's evidently danger. The picture my mind is drawing as I'm reading these things (and thank you for the detailed commentary, by the way!)

Anyway, I'm envisioning the backhoe assembly essentially being lifted upwards and thrust into... (was going to say your lap)

BUT.... I think I just had a lightbulb go off.

When you are using a 3-pt backhoe, the assembly attaches to the 3-pt....fine. What I don't think I was realizing is that you are physically sitting on top of the backhoe (remember, I've got a swivel seat so this is foreign to me)

So now that I rethink this.....you are sitting ON the backhoe, sandwiched between a couple pounds of steel below you (sarcasism) which is the backhoe, AND a couple pounds of steel behind you, which is the tractor.

Now I think I'm getting it.

Draft goes into operation, lifts the 3-point with YOU sitting in (above) the action area and if things get crowded, you are the soft cushion that pays the price.

Interesting.

So, question.... my wife's cousin next door, has a Deere 4??? and he's got a subframe mounted backhoe.

1. I'm guessing (hoping) with a subframe mount, this concern isn't a concern now as it's mainly (only?) an issue with a 3-pt mounted unit.
2. He has some hoses he has to reroute (power beyond or something?) Forgetting for a moment that his is frame mounted, does replumbing the hoses to power the hoe ever bypass the draft control? (therefore rendering the draft control impotent while hoe is connected)?
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #28  
I find this interesting. I can read and understand there's evidently danger. The picture my mind is drawing as I'm reading these things (and thank you for the detailed commentary, by the way!)

Anyway, I'm envisioning the backhoe assembly essentially being lifted upwards and thrust into... (was going to say your lap)

BUT.... I think I just had a lightbulb go off.

When you are using a 3-pt backhoe, the assembly attaches to the 3-pt....fine. What I don't think I was realizing is that you are physically sitting on top of the backhoe (remember, I've got a swivel seat so this is foreign to me)

So now that I rethink this.....you are sitting ON the backhoe, sandwiched between a couple pounds of steel below you (sarcasism) which is the backhoe, AND a couple pounds of steel behind you, which is the tractor.

Now I think I'm getting it.

Draft goes into operation, lifts the 3-point with YOU sitting in (above) the action area and if things get crowded, you are the soft cushion that pays the price.

Interesting.

So, question.... my wife's cousin next door, has a Deere 4??? and he's got a subframe mounted backhoe.

1. I'm guessing (hoping) with a subframe mount, this concern isn't a concern now as it's mainly (only?) an issue with a 3-pt mounted unit.
2. He has some hoses he has to reroute (power beyond or something?) Forgetting for a moment that his is frame mounted, does replumbing the hoses to power the hoe ever bypass the draft control? (therefore rendering the draft control impotent while hoe is connected)?

You've got it. The problem is with the universal 3pt mounted hoes, not the subframe mounted ones. And yes, it is a hazard because of where the operator sits on those type hoes. BTW, the first thing to enter the operator area in my case were the backhoe control levers. I felt them move toward me in my hands as I bailed out sideways. The levers ended up embedded into the padded seat back. No other damage. I may have had to bend the seat mount back out... I forget....

I don't think that replumbing bypasses the draft control circuit. It's internal. With a subframe the whole problem goes away - doesn't even exist.

But think about this: In order to do its job, auto draft control has to work much more quickly than typical hydraulics. So the force lifting the arms is system pressure PLUS the dynamic force from a rapidly moving slug of fluid triggered by the top link pivot. The lift arms don't just move up, they jerk up. Then the relief valve kicks in and the action repeats.

Question for you - forget the backhoe, it's gone. Now we are just plowing with a single plow on the 3pt. What would happen if the auto draft control was not fast enough when the plow got caught under a big root?

rScotty
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods? #29  
Question for you - forget the backhoe, it's gone. Now we are just plowing with a single plow on the 3pt. What would happen if the auto draft control was not fast enough when the plow got caught under a big root?
I'm thinking you pop a quickie wheelie.... pucker your pants and you decide later on that you were VERY lucky that you quickly (did whatever you did to save your hiney)..... or, someone ELSE decides later on.....that you were not.
 
   / Kubota B4690 3pt Backhoe made by Woods?
  • Thread Starter
#30  
I find this interesting. I can read and understand there's evidently danger. The picture my mind is drawing as I'm reading these things (and thank you for the detailed commentary, by the way!)

Anyway, I'm envisioning the backhoe assembly essentially being lifted upwards and thrust into... (was going to say your lap)

BUT.... I think I just had a lightbulb go off.

When you are using a 3-pt backhoe, the assembly attaches to the 3-pt....fine. What I don't think I was realizing is that you are physically sitting on top of the backhoe (remember, I've got a swivel seat so this is foreign to me)

So now that I rethink this.....you are sitting ON the backhoe, sandwiched between a couple pounds of steel below you (sarcasism) which is the backhoe, AND a couple pounds of steel behind you, which is the tractor.

Now I think I'm getting it.

Draft goes into operation, lifts the 3-point with YOU sitting in (above) the action area and if things get crowded, you are the soft cushion that pays the price.

Interesting.

So, question.... my wife's cousin next door, has a Deere 4??? and he's got a subframe mounted backhoe.

1. I'm guessing (hoping) with a subframe mount, this concern isn't a concern now as it's mainly (only?) an issue with a 3-pt mounted unit.
2. He has some hoses he has to reroute (power beyond or something?) Forgetting for a moment that his is frame mounted, does replumbing the hoses to power the hoe ever bypass the draft control? (therefore rendering the draft control impotent while hoe is connected)?
In addition to it being a non-issue with the subframe mount, I didn't think draft control was available on the 4 series compacts -only on the 5 utility series and the 6 and up ag series
 
 

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