Kubota does "not recognize synthetic oil"

[Peter]

Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Just when I thought I had it all figured out.....
Meaning I believe the synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil, especially here in the north-east. But I have just completed my 50 hour fluid change on my B2710 and used Shell 15w40 Rotella in the engine and super UDT in the back. (clean screen by the way. NO metal.)

First, it was my dealer who said, "Just use good quality 15w40 diesel oil. Synthetic will void the Kubota warranty".
Next I called Kutoba Tractor Corp in Torrance, CA, Warranty Dept. They said (sounding a bit like a legal mumbo-jumbo answer), "Use what is stated in the manual. We cannot guarantee that the warranty will cover synthetic motor oil". I mentioned that the manual also says to use 10w30, but EVERY DEALER uses 15w40 (ok Bird, stop smiling, you were right and I was wrong). They had no response.

Lastly I called a mechanic worker-guy at Kubota Tractor Corp in columbus, OH. He was pretty knowledgeable but held the party line. He said, "Use a regular good quality 15w40 diesel oil. Kubota does not recognize synthetic oil". He also said that he thinks Kubota oil is 15w40 Valvoline and was in my tractor from the factory. I asked why my manual said to use 10w30 and he sorta danced around a bit. I think he said, "most commonly available oils in the US are straight 30 and 10-30 multi-vis. That may be why the Japanese company put that in the manual. (I know, we have discussed this before... but we do love oil discussions!) Also, never mind the discrepancy that Super UDT "may" be partially synthetic.

So, in the future, I believe Kubota may actually approve synthetic motor oil for use. Its better oil. But until they do, I'm going to use the old-technology stuff because, god forbid, I had a major engine failure and oil analysis indicated that I had a synthetic oil in there and my warranty was voided. This is too big an issue for the little guy to fight. I may email this discussion to Exxon-Mobil corp and Amsoil, etc. I think it would be in their interest to work with Kubota and other companies who have not yet gotten around to thinking about synthetic oils.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

My 15 years of research indicate that synthetics are superior and I intend to use 100% synthetic fluids in my 2710 (being delivered today !) They run cooler, are more stable, and are more temp resistant. BMW, corvette, and porsche all come factory filled with synthetics. My personal experience with synthetic motor & gear oils reflects comments above. my bmw with 140k miles still has compression in all cylinders within new car specs !, synthetic motor oils maintain viscosity better so they thicken less in the cold and thin less when hot- this characteristic alone will better protect your engine & enable better cold starting. synthetic gear oil's significantly improved the performance of an old vw jetta I once owned.......can you tell where I stand on this issue ?
DWR

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Peter, first of all, note that it was only your dealer who said it will void the warranty. Dealers are famous for shooting their mouths off and giving their opinion as manufacturer policy. They're also famous for having 50-year-old opinions.

Over the years, I've asked half a dozen Kubota factory service specialists about synthetics and been told they're fine. The last time I asked was about a year ago, until this morning...

I've talked to two Kubota warranty people this morning, one in GA, the other in OH, and both told me that the phrase "does not recognize" means simply that the engineers at Japan HQ have not officially "recognized" or "approved" synthetic oil. They both said that, as long as the proper grade was used, there should be no problem. They also said that, in any warranty issue that even remotely appeared to be possibly related to lubricant failure, the lubricant in question would be analyzed. If the lubricant was found to be the wrong grade or aged beyond reasonable tolerances, the warranty would be voided. They would not be checking to see if it was synthetic, only that it was within tolerances, they said. Based on that, you're far better off with synthetic, since it will stay "within tolerances" far longer than petroleum. All that said, they both told me they weren't the "final word" on the matter and gave me the name and phone number of the guy who is. When he gets in, we're going to have a little chat. I'll post what he says.

BTW, I also called Amsoil, and one of their specifications and warranty guys said that if Kubota is stating that synthetics void their warranty, it's a radical departure from their position built up over the last 10 years.

And one more thing: if this guy at Kubota tells me that my warranty is void simply because I use synthetics, I'll never buy another Kubota. I've already called John Deere and been told they approve their use. So, if Kubota has decided to disapprove synthetics, I'll go green. I don't want any "dark ages" engineers designing my stuff. I'm the consumer, I've got the cash, and that means I've got control.

Mark

 

[gordon]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

It's the way of big business, no one wants to put themselves out on a limb and it then come back to haunt them later. Mabe no one knows what is in UDT a seceret sauce u know.

When you get rid of your Kubota for a hand crank john deere let me put a bid on that 4310 of yours since it will be of no use to you.

At work we have to be very careful how we phrase things to our customers. We don't want any added risk either, alot of the rigs we work on are very expensive and if we tell the customer that something will be covered under warranty and it's not we have to eat it to save face with that customer. If we didn't he would no longer trust us and without trust we have nothing of a relationship.
That may be one reason for the warranty dance about oil, because in the big <font color=orange>orange</font color=orange> corporate manual it states unsure at this time.

 

[W5FL]

Re: Kubota UDT

UDT is the Kubota proprietary name for Tractor Hydraulic Fluid suitable for tractors having brake pads immersed in the fluid. If you get the kind that is not meant for having brake pads immersed in the fluid, you will know it immediately! Identical fluid is available from all major tractor companies under their name (John Deere or New Holland) and from most oil suppliers and tractor supply houses and many dealers.

Super UDT I am not so sure I understand, yet. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Ok, here's the definitive word, per Kubota Warranty Dept Grand Imperial Wizard (my words, not his) at Kubota HQ in Torrence, CA. The gentleman was very nice, but did request that I not post his name on the Internet, for what we can all understand are pretty good and obvious reasons. And I quote: "As long as you use the grade and classification of lubricant specified in your manual, we don't care." I asked him if they had any particular stance on synthetic vs. petroleum usage and he repeated the importance of the viscosity and API classifications but said that, otherwise, "it's a non-issue". He said that, frankly, such warranty issues were so low that they didn't worry about them anyway. He reaffirmed, when I phrased the question, that if a failure appears to be lubricant-related, the oil would be sent off for analysis to determine viscosity, grade, and age but said there would be no concern on their part whether it was synthetic or not. He said he will send an internal memo to the appropriate parties to make sure there is no further confusion on the subject. He also hadn't heard of our little group here, but was very interested in it and said he'll check it out.

Long live Kubota! (Especially Kubota's on synthetics! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif) They're not in the dark ages! /w3tcompact/icons/cool.gif My L4310HST is not for sale! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif (Unless I upgrade to an L4610HST.) Any questions? /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Mark

 

[Peter]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Mark. I'm happy to hear this. However, I'm not happy that the same warranty dept at Kubota told me one week ago words to the effect, "we can not guarantee the warranty". Did I talk to the wrong guy? I am also not happy that the service people in the Northern Division in Ohio don't know the current position on this matter. Why... they sound almost as screwed-up as my company! (I work for a large defense contractor that will remain nameless) Very disfunctional.

Thank you for taking this to the next level. I figured that hearing the same word from two different departments of Kubota Corporation would be enough to assume they had it right. But now that I think of it, the warranty department sounded very unsure of themselves. They had to ask a few people before they gave me their bullshxx answer. I got the impression that if you do what your dealer says, no matter what, they would back you. (thats probably written down somewhere)

I look forward to seeing what you told us put in writing by Kubota Corporation.

Regards. Pete R (and I'm not a "new member". Did you guys pick your member name?)

(fyi, 20 years ago I was using Amsoil in my bmw 2002 tii. The guys with turbos said it is the only oil that they couldn't fry in 1000 miles... but this was not supposed to be a post about the benefits of synthetic. Sorry )

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Peter, the guy I spoke to said he was aware that there was "misinformation" given and he'd received a couple notes this morning that questions had been asked regarding the issue recently (but that could've been my calls - I was not particularly jovial, shall we say, when I called OH and GA). It was in that context that he said a memo would be circulated. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever see it. If you would like his name and number, since you initially raised the issue, email me and I'll be happy to give it to you.

The "New Member" title refers to your number of posts on the new board since registering, not anything else. It changes automagically.

Yeah, be careful about that synthetic advocacy stuff. I get tired of hearing it. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif And Bird's a little touchy on the subject, too. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Mark

 

[Bird]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Yeah, sure glad I don't have to worry about that warranty problem, since I use the real thing in mine./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Note the phrase "As long as you use the grade and classification of lubricant specified in your manual, we don't care." Many of both synthetic and conventional oil grades that people here say they use do not meet specs. If the manual says 10-30 or 10-40 and you are using 5-40 or 15-40 then the oil is out of spec. If a failure occures and the oil is sent off to determine viscosity, grade, and age then Kubota would know the wrong viscosity was being used. This would be more of a warentee issue than conventional vs synthetic.

Andy

 

[Bird]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

The manual also says to use CC or CD oil. Andy, do you have any? Since everyone I know personally around here uses the 15W-40, including the dealer, I don't expect there'd be any problem. And since I've never had a lubrication related failure on anything I've ever owned anyway, I'm quite comfortable using the 15W-40. But technically speaking, I suppose you're right. Of course, I do think Kubota should get someone to update their manuals. I wouldn't even care if they approved Mark's imitation oil./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

I agree that you can not easily get CC od CD rated oils however the oils with higher letter designations will almost always meet or exceed the CC and CD rating. This rating is a case where the consumer has almost no choice (although I have not checked to see if the Kubota brand oil still has the CC, CD rating).
Viscosity is another issue. There are plenty of oils available that meet the 10-30 or 10-40 rating. If Kubota tests the oil after an engine failure, the easiest test and probabily the first one performed will be for viscosity.

Andy

 

[Bird]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Andy, I don't have any quarrel with what you're saying, but do you really believe there could ever be a warranty question because someone used 5W-40 or 15W-40 oil (whether petroleum or synthetic) instead of 10W-30 or 10W-40? If you do believe that, then I think you should use the 10W-30 or 10W-40, and you sure can't go wrong. But I'm comfortable using the 15W-40. And I guess you know I live in central Texas. If I lived in a colder climate, I might reconsider (even though my brothers used the 15W-40 in their diesel trucks in Alaska).

Bird

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Good point, Bird. Realistically, we all know that there's no way a warranty issue engine failure will be blamed on oil viscosity unless it comes out of there looking something like tar. (Which is what petroleum will look like if you exceed the recommended drain interval by about 4 times. That's what they're looking for.)

Once again, synthetic comes out on top here because it will maintain its viscosity far better than any petroleum oil. Besides, any 20w50 synthetic is going to be closer to the center "weight" of 10w30 petroleum at 30 degrees and 200 degrees, and any oil analysis lab in the world knows this. What does it mean to engine durability, specifically? I don't know. What does it mean to a lab analysis "proving" an oil is unfit insofar as meeting a certain specification? Everything.

Mark

 

[JimBinMI]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Bird,

You poor Kubota guys, I don't know what I'm gonna do with you all! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif You know how I feel, if it's OK by New Holland it must be OK! I have a list of oils to choose from and I believe my API service ratings of SG-CE are more up to date? Not sure, I've never been accused of hanging around reading oil bottles. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif My operator's manual says I can use: 10w-30, 15w-40, 30, 5w-30...the power of BLUE ! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif My dealer sold me 15w-40 for my 50 hour and said it would be just fine in all of Michigan's weather.

JimBinMI

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

And any of those will be fine in a Kubota. One thing that's been neglected so far is that the Kubota manual actually says that you can use 30w above 77 degrees, 20w between 32 and 77, and 10w below 32. If you can use that stuff, you can use anything thicker than olive oil and thinner than molasses. So much for engineering and science. I wouldn't use that stuff to lubricate the throttle linkage, much less inside the engine. Of course, the manual also says you can use 10w30 and 10w40 at any of those temps.

Mark

 

[W5FL]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Mark, My dad was shop foreman for a Cadillac dealer and Service Manager for a Buick dealer. The stories he told about people and their oil and warranty failures were incredable to me. Some people never changed their oil until something failed. Ever see the inside of an engine where the oil is BAKED on everything?

He also disliked the multiweight oils because when they exceed the recommended change intervals they break down to the low viscosity numbers and cause failures at high temp. Single grade oils do not do this. That is why they check the viscosity of the oil. If it comes out 5W you will never get your claim!

Abused oil is usually pretty obvious before going to the lab. The lab just gives the results in writing. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Good points, Wen. And that's the main difference between high quality petroleum oils and cheap ones: the additive package. Amsoil has always made a big deal of the quality of additive packages. Several of Amsoil's synthetics achieve 10w30 and 15w40 API ratings with no additive package whatsoever, which substantially improves their life in extended drain applications.

Mark

 

[Bird]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

JimBinMI, it's an unfortunate fact that no manual can cover everything (we wouldn't have much to talk about on this forum if they did /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif), and it's also rare, if not impossible, to find a manual of any kind that is completely accurate and up-to-date (I know; I used to be responsible for keeping the manuals up-to-date on my job). And I called GM's technical folks a few years ago when I found some errors in their repair manuals for my 1989 Chevrolet truck, and they said they just overlooked changing the manual when they changed the production. Nowadays I do just a little bit of air tool repair, and I've found a number of errors, and omissions, in the manuals of the major manufacturers and sometimes have to call them to get the right information. I suppose Kubota's manuals are on a par with others, but I'm not really impressed with them. Their tractors are a lot better than their manuals./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif I also wondered when I got the B2710 manual about it specifying only Kubota's UDT or Super UDT hydraulic oil, when the 1995 manual for the B7100 listed the UDT AND a half dozen other brands by name. Of course, New Holland's manuals may be better than Kubota's/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif; I don't know. The only one I've seen was when I read rapidly through the TC29 owner's manual, but I'll bet if you keep that tractor and manual long enough, you'll find some mistakes in the manual/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif. I've never forgotten that part of my early training was to "go by the book until you know more than the book." That struck me as odd at the time, but I came to understand it better later on in life.

Bird

 

[W5FL]

Re: Kubota does \"not recognize synthetic oil\"

Bird, My dealer also referred to the previous 1995 Kubota manuals as listing the other substitutions for UDT as being those name brand hydraulic fluids that are specified to have brake pads operating in the oil. If you still have your old manual, I would be very interested in the listing of comparable UDT fluids.