Kubota sues Kioti
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RayBee
Gold Member
Woodbeef:Thanks for the info. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif ..I'm curious enough to try and find the websitefor more specs. Never can know too much. ..Or can you? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif ...RayBee
Woodbeef
Veteran Member
Hey RayBee,
When it comes to tractors,the quest for info never seems to end!!
Unfortunately the Agco site has reverted back to a former iteration. Not really sure why though. Must be some type of gremlins at work there. www.agcocorp.com The sites for everywhere but North America seem to be fine.
When it comes to tractors,the quest for info never seems to end!!
Unfortunately the Agco site has reverted back to a former iteration. Not really sure why though. Must be some type of gremlins at work there. www.agcocorp.com The sites for everywhere but North America seem to be fine.
Kiohio
Platinum Member
Ranchman, That unfortunately is sad but true.
KO
KIOTI's Official Response
Daedong finds the lawsuit to be wholly without merit. Daedong has been selling it's orange tractors in the United States since 1985 with Kubota's knowledge and with no claim that Kubota's trade dress has been infringed. In light of this fact, Daedong believes that the lawsuit is motivated by anti-competitive animus.
Kioti Tractor Division
KO
KIOTI's Official Response
Daedong finds the lawsuit to be wholly without merit. Daedong has been selling it's orange tractors in the United States since 1985 with Kubota's knowledge and with no claim that Kubota's trade dress has been infringed. In light of this fact, Daedong believes that the lawsuit is motivated by anti-competitive animus.
Kioti Tractor Division
Anonymous Poster
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Ranchman: respectfully suggest it's not a matter of "every barrel has some bad apples in it" but is endemic in the system, i.e. it's a matter of incentive. we all, including you and I, react to perceived incentives. the incentive for some guy trying to make a living selling tractors is . . . you fill in the blank. Its automatic. for those with a longer range of vision, lying to get a sale offers them no incentive. to those focused on the range of the moment (i.e. the next deal) it is another matter. frankly, the range of vision in our age is ever shortening, the politico focuses on the next election, the corporate CEO focuses on the next quarterly report. ever shorter range of vision. On another note, how do you like you're 4110? does the PTO system (auto/manual) work well? the 4110 is certainly a heavy unit with a very long standard equipment list. John
Grimreaper -
The "bad apples" is an oversimplification (and an unusually brief post for me! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif) Let me clarify (a little bit) what I meant.
I understand where you are coming from, and agree to a large extent with regards to incentive. That being said, my main point was those who resort to dishonest means to make a sale constitute "bad apples" (and somewhat in disagreement with your earlier post, also demonstrate a lack of moral/ethical fortitude within the business community.)
However, my point was that this is not a characteristic unique to Kioti, as not explicitly, but somewhat implicitly stated in the post by putty above. In other words, regardless of the brand name on the side of the tractor (JD, NH, Kubota, Mahindra, Kioti, [insert name here], etc.), there is going to be someone out there that will resort to unethical behavior (lying is something I consider unethical) in order to suit their (the salesman's) need/desire for instant gratification (money in pocket, tractor off lot).
Not all salesmen (or companies) resort to these tactics. Overall, based on my experience, I'd venture to say that a relatively few companies resort to such behavior, (e.g. your comment about having their customer base "fall" for something - e.g. implies deception - and not all marketing is deceptive). Unfortunately, the generic salesman is far more inclined to be a bit more "loose" with the "truth" in order to "close the deal." Product (or company) doesn't matter - could be the salesman trying to get you in to a tractor that he wants to clear off the lot, that car dealer getting you in to that new vehicle, the computer guy trying to sell you servers that aren't the "best of breed" for the purpose you are buying them for, etc.
Don't take this the wrong way - not all salesmen are "bad people" - smoke & mirrors, deceptive filled individuals - but saying that none that work for "Company X" is not being realistic either. (e.g. just because one Kioti salesman was dishonest, doesn't mean all, or even a large # are and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that all JD/NH/Kubota/etc. salesmen are 100% honest/ethical either.)
I guess what it boils down to is, as you put it, motivation. Commission, sales volume quotas, job security, paying bills (e.g. electricity, employees, rent, etc.) all go in to the "motivation" column. Where the salesman chooses to rank honesty and long term vision (e.g. repeat business/relationship building) is the question.
Although I generally "trust" most companies, I am less optimistic with regards to those in sales. I still believe in the words "Caveat Emptor."
---
As far as my 4110 - overall, I'm very pleased. I've had a couple of problems with it (funny you ask about the solenoid actuated PTO) but overall it is working out well.
The 2 things issues associated with the PTO that have "bugged me" are:
(1) the solenoids propensity to "stick" in the "off" position (going to have it replaced by the dealer this spring) which then requires manually pushing a plunger to "unstick" it on the belly of the tractor, and;
(2) the instantaneous activation of the PTO shaft which can (even at idle) make short work of shear bolts. (e.g. no way to "slip" or gradually increase the speed from 0 to then match the RPM of the motor.)
It is certainly a stout machine, and I wouldn't hesitate to get another one in the future. Is it perfect? Nope. Could it use some improvements? Yup. Do I think I got an extremely capable tractor at a very good price? Absolutely.
The "bad apples" is an oversimplification (and an unusually brief post for me! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif) Let me clarify (a little bit) what I meant.
I understand where you are coming from, and agree to a large extent with regards to incentive. That being said, my main point was those who resort to dishonest means to make a sale constitute "bad apples" (and somewhat in disagreement with your earlier post, also demonstrate a lack of moral/ethical fortitude within the business community.)
However, my point was that this is not a characteristic unique to Kioti, as not explicitly, but somewhat implicitly stated in the post by putty above. In other words, regardless of the brand name on the side of the tractor (JD, NH, Kubota, Mahindra, Kioti, [insert name here], etc.), there is going to be someone out there that will resort to unethical behavior (lying is something I consider unethical) in order to suit their (the salesman's) need/desire for instant gratification (money in pocket, tractor off lot).
Not all salesmen (or companies) resort to these tactics. Overall, based on my experience, I'd venture to say that a relatively few companies resort to such behavior, (e.g. your comment about having their customer base "fall" for something - e.g. implies deception - and not all marketing is deceptive). Unfortunately, the generic salesman is far more inclined to be a bit more "loose" with the "truth" in order to "close the deal." Product (or company) doesn't matter - could be the salesman trying to get you in to a tractor that he wants to clear off the lot, that car dealer getting you in to that new vehicle, the computer guy trying to sell you servers that aren't the "best of breed" for the purpose you are buying them for, etc.
Don't take this the wrong way - not all salesmen are "bad people" - smoke & mirrors, deceptive filled individuals - but saying that none that work for "Company X" is not being realistic either. (e.g. just because one Kioti salesman was dishonest, doesn't mean all, or even a large # are and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean that all JD/NH/Kubota/etc. salesmen are 100% honest/ethical either.)
I guess what it boils down to is, as you put it, motivation. Commission, sales volume quotas, job security, paying bills (e.g. electricity, employees, rent, etc.) all go in to the "motivation" column. Where the salesman chooses to rank honesty and long term vision (e.g. repeat business/relationship building) is the question.
Although I generally "trust" most companies, I am less optimistic with regards to those in sales. I still believe in the words "Caveat Emptor."
---
As far as my 4110 - overall, I'm very pleased. I've had a couple of problems with it (funny you ask about the solenoid actuated PTO) but overall it is working out well.
The 2 things issues associated with the PTO that have "bugged me" are:
(1) the solenoids propensity to "stick" in the "off" position (going to have it replaced by the dealer this spring) which then requires manually pushing a plunger to "unstick" it on the belly of the tractor, and;
(2) the instantaneous activation of the PTO shaft which can (even at idle) make short work of shear bolts. (e.g. no way to "slip" or gradually increase the speed from 0 to then match the RPM of the motor.)
It is certainly a stout machine, and I wouldn't hesitate to get another one in the future. Is it perfect? Nope. Could it use some improvements? Yup. Do I think I got an extremely capable tractor at a very good price? Absolutely.
Anonymous Poster
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Ranchman: Thanks for your carefully thought out response. Ok, ok ok . . . mea culpa for the broad brush strokes. That said, I do believe that it is possible to treat as a dominant "theme" particular groupings of people (corporate, political, other "groups"), as entities (ok, not every individual in that entity or group conforms to that theme). Further, if there were the technology (and inclination) to examine Daedong's strategy (or perhaps it is the importer), somewhere, sometime you would find decision makers saying something like "let's make our tractor look like Kubota." I truly believe that is a reasonable conclusion. Another way of looking at it is to consider the preponderance of evidence and treat that as a general thrust (or theme) of that group. Compare, for example, the general thrust of, say, New Holland. I realize we are getting a bit off of tractors and into the area of epistemology (how do we know what we know and how do we know we know it, when and how do we generalize, etc.), but, your response was so thoughtful it deserved a decent response. Re: the 4110, at least you can get the solenoid working when it does stick! I gave serious consideration to the 4110 (that Bradco BH they offer is the best-strongest-I've seen). I'm going to have to add 700-800 lbs of weights to my soon to be delivered NH TC40 just to get it up to the weight/heft of the 4110! Since the importer is in Texas (maybe there are more dealers there than around here) you may not feel as nervous about long term parts availability as I did. You mentioned price, I seriously looked at 5 different tractors (makes) and the prices I got for the 2 liter engine size w-FEL & BH were less than $2k from the least to the most. The Mahindra was more than a Century and John Deere, and, slightly less than the NH and Kubota. Of course, the Mahindra has a longer "standard" feature list and a much stronger hoe. In any event Anyway, take care & thanks again for your response. John
northcreek2624
Gold Member
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- Lake View,N.Y.(WNY)
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- KIOTI DK40(2002)) Jacobsen 628D AWD Turfcat
Reaper and Ranchman,Please! stop it,you're making my head hurt.....again.
Mike
Mike
Woodbeef
Veteran Member
Hey guys,
Something I've been noticing lately,is that these slick glad handing I can sell anything to anybody type of salespeople, are the ones that seem to be spouting these untruths. Could they be making up for lack of knowledge by answering on the fly,with what they think you want to hear to make the purchase? Some of them are quite smarmy!!
What ever happened to the old days when the salesman believed in his product and really knew it,and then sold it on it's actual merits?
These new days of marketing are nothing but problems!! Especially the new smarmy sales force!!
Something I've been noticing lately,is that these slick glad handing I can sell anything to anybody type of salespeople, are the ones that seem to be spouting these untruths. Could they be making up for lack of knowledge by answering on the fly,with what they think you want to hear to make the purchase? Some of them are quite smarmy!!
What ever happened to the old days when the salesman believed in his product and really knew it,and then sold it on it's actual merits?
These new days of marketing are nothing but problems!! Especially the new smarmy sales force!!
Grimreaper -
Since we are giving northcreek2624 a headache /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif, I'll make my response brief.
<font color=blue> it is possible to ... "theme" particular groupings </font color=blue>
Yep. I'll agree with that. (e.g. my general "distrust" of all salesmen.) I was just worried some comment like "John Deere (or whatever brand) salesmen would never be dishonest." - yea, right...
<font color=blue>...Daedong's strategy... somewhere, sometime you would find decision makers saying something like "let's make our tractor look like Kubota." </font color=blue>
I won't disagree with that statement either as lots of companies replicate the "look" of successful competitors. But I see that as the "bait" to draw someone driving down the road to stop and look. Once they stop, as others pointed out, if they can read, that's where the advantages of orange paint & styling peter out. Sure, a dishonest salesman may lead them astray, but it isn't hard to do a little research to find out the truth regarding the non-existent relationship between Kubota & Kioti. (The whole "buyer beware" thing again.)
--------------
4110: Yea, at least there is a "manual override" to get it working. Still a pain, but better than not having the capability for sure.
I'm not really nervous about parts since Mahindra is an extremely large company and has been making tractors for a while, and, as you point out, since the importer for the U.S. is only about 250 miles away (just “round the block” for a Texan- /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), I'm not that worried. I'll admit I'm at a higher risk than other brands, but as you said, since there are more dealerships down here I'm less concerned. (We'll see if my opinion changes when I take it in to have the solenoid replaced!)
As far as pricing, there was a larger price difference between the "primary colors" and Mahindra down here - and even a huge difference between different Mahindra dealerships. My initial purchase (tractor/FEL, Box Blade, PHD) set me back less than $17K - which I couldn't find anything from the "big three" that was close as far as pricing for a comparable product. Maybe I was lucky, maybe other big 3 dealers will dicker a bit more than those local to me. Regardless, I'm happy, which in the long run is the most important aspect I suppose.
Take care - and have fun with your new "baby blue!"
Since we are giving northcreek2624 a headache /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif, I'll make my response brief.
<font color=blue> it is possible to ... "theme" particular groupings </font color=blue>
Yep. I'll agree with that. (e.g. my general "distrust" of all salesmen.) I was just worried some comment like "John Deere (or whatever brand) salesmen would never be dishonest." - yea, right...
<font color=blue>...Daedong's strategy... somewhere, sometime you would find decision makers saying something like "let's make our tractor look like Kubota." </font color=blue>
I won't disagree with that statement either as lots of companies replicate the "look" of successful competitors. But I see that as the "bait" to draw someone driving down the road to stop and look. Once they stop, as others pointed out, if they can read, that's where the advantages of orange paint & styling peter out. Sure, a dishonest salesman may lead them astray, but it isn't hard to do a little research to find out the truth regarding the non-existent relationship between Kubota & Kioti. (The whole "buyer beware" thing again.)
--------------
4110: Yea, at least there is a "manual override" to get it working. Still a pain, but better than not having the capability for sure.
I'm not really nervous about parts since Mahindra is an extremely large company and has been making tractors for a while, and, as you point out, since the importer for the U.S. is only about 250 miles away (just “round the block” for a Texan- /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif), I'm not that worried. I'll admit I'm at a higher risk than other brands, but as you said, since there are more dealerships down here I'm less concerned. (We'll see if my opinion changes when I take it in to have the solenoid replaced!)
As far as pricing, there was a larger price difference between the "primary colors" and Mahindra down here - and even a huge difference between different Mahindra dealerships. My initial purchase (tractor/FEL, Box Blade, PHD) set me back less than $17K - which I couldn't find anything from the "big three" that was close as far as pricing for a comparable product. Maybe I was lucky, maybe other big 3 dealers will dicker a bit more than those local to me. Regardless, I'm happy, which in the long run is the most important aspect I suppose.
Take care - and have fun with your new "baby blue!"
