Kubota vs. Deere vs. Case vs. New Holland

[GManBart]

I don't see pump flow as a primary consideration for picking a machine. It's an important spec to be aware of, but not key to the decision....especially if you have time, because it really only impacts how quickly the loader will raise, curl, etc, not how much it will lift.

It sounds like a true TLB would be a better bet for what you're doing. Normal ag tractors with FELs and backhoes can do a lot of work, but simply aren't built as stout as a true TLB.

Digging stumps or trenches is a pain with an FEL, but can kinda/sorta be done...you're usually going to take a lot longer, make a bigger mess, and probably not be as happy with the final product.

 

[nola000]

First of all, you're gonna have a real difficult time finding a decent HST machine with FEL and backhoe for $15k.

Thanks. Im finding that my price bracket is a limiting factor but Im the type that would go without and slowly build up the gear I want by buying the best and buying it once and paying cash. Im terrified of regret.

But, if your looking for these in this size, then you should probably stick with either JD or Kubota. They both make a true TLB (Tractor Loader Backhoe) with better hydraulics & strength.
Look for a Kubota L35 or Deere 110.
A run of the mill compact tractor with an add on backhoe won't be as good as a dedicated TLB.
Good luck!

I don't follow your thinking about the tlb being less flexible in its use. I find the tlb to be more flexible with better hydraulics front and rear, same 3ph capacity in most cases and the backhoe operation and capability is much better than the ag tractor add ons. You will see that the pto hp is a little less on a tlb because the larger hydraulic pumps use up some of the gross hp. The downside to a tlb is that the additional heavy duty parts make them more expensive. As an example my Deere 110tlb (43hp) cost a lot more than my 4520(60hp).

Have you looked at the tlb's used? Not sure what's out there used, but ones like the Deere 110, or Kubota l39, l45, or l48?? They will have much stronger loaders and hoes than their 40hp compact tractor counterparts.

It sounds like a true TLB would be a better bet for what you're doing. Normal ag tractors with FELs and backhoes can do a lot of work, but simply aren't built as stout as a true TLB.

Ive noticed that the dedicated compact TLBs were much stronger for their size than the comparable CUTs that they are built off of. Im worried that a dedicated machine like an L35 or 110 wouldnt have the provisions needed to run other common farming implements(3ph?) or that the attachment selection would be low, very expensive, non-existent or not possible. Im under the impression that the Kubota/Deere compact TLBs are built only for a loader and backhoe and possibly only their particular loader/backhoe.

Im also concerned that in the future parts and attachment availability would be lower with a dedicated compact TLB because they arent as common or as universal. Is this a logical assumption?

The other issue is weight of the dedicated TLBs. They are much heavier than comparable CUTs with an FEL and backhoe. I address the weight issue further down in my post. My tow capacity limits me to CUTs.

About your spread sheet make sure you separate the available hydraulic flow and psi from the total flow which includes the steering. The 4120 for instance has an available flow of about 12 gpm (for fel and remotes), who cares what the steering flow is. I can't remember any threads where members are complaining about steering issues so remove that from the mix.

Good idea on separating the flow capacities in my chart. I used total flow because I thought that maybe it was possible to somehow divert some of the steering flow with a modification to supplement the flow to the rest of the system for attachments. If this isnt possible than, yes, I would only be interested in the auxiliary flow capacity, sans steering. If a modification isnt possible or could damage or reduce the life of other parts than I need to adjust my spreadsheet.

There is more to it than the lift specs such as when the fel snags a root on the edge of the bucket.

Different manufacturers give their loader specs in different ways so I figured I would use the most favorable way of measuring as this is what most manufacturers in most industries do anyway to pump their product. I used the lift and breakout specs at the pivot point as a way of leveling the playing field, of course they all gave that measurement. I figured that the capacities beyond the pivot point would generally increase relative to one another. This way I can compare all the manufacturers specs with one another.

There is a pretty big physical size difference between some of them tractors. Like the 3430 and Deere 4120. But when shopping the used market, makes it really hard to keep comparisons apples to apples. And when it comes to lots of ground clearing, stumps, roots, etc. A compact tractor and fel wouldn't be my equipment of choice. And definataly not for trenching anything.

Yes. Its very hard to tell from pictures as there arent many pictures with the right angle and with a frame of reference, like an average size guy standing next to the tire. Who knew nobody wants to be seen next to their cool new tractor! :thumbsup:

FEL trenching would be in a pinch so I could get a few things done as I cant afford to buy both a nice tractor and a backhoe attachment right now. Those freaking backhoe attachments are almost as much as the tractors Im looking at! I watched a guy trench with a small Bobcat wheeled skid steer, it wasnt pretty but it got the job done.

And you mentioned trailering. How often do you plan on hauling it around??

Yes. Trailering would be to my rental property to do some clearing, brother-in-laws house to do some things, maybe a little work on the side, etc. I have to stay within a weight range. My tow vehicle has a max tow capacity of 7,700lbs. and the trailer I currently have(77"x16') has a GVWR of 5,000lbs. and a trailer weight of 1,500lbs. which leaves me with 3,500lbs., so Im going to have to upgrade my trailer as pretty much all of the CUTs Im considering are close to or over 3,500lbs. especially once I put a backhoe on it. Im thinking a trailer with something like a 8,000lb GVWR. At my 7,700lb. tow vehicle cap minus the average 2,000lb. trailer weight of a 8,000lb GVWR trailer means I cant have a tractor over 5,700lbs. This is one of the reasons I cant consider a dedicated TLB. John Deere 110TLB is 7,280lbs. and the Kubota L35 is 6,000lbs., just out of reach of my tow capacity once you add a 2,000lb trailer. The B21 and B26 TLBs are really compact and dont seem to have the capacities of the L series tractors that Im looking at.

I didn't catch how much property that you want to clear, or how big of brush that your talking about. If the brush is reasonably small, a "Ratchet Rake" would be a cheap way to use your fel. I have cleared allot of land with a bush hog and grapple. If you keep mowing brush off it will die and rot. Just depends on how much of a hurry your in.
I wouldn't want to do much clearing with just an FEL.

Im in the same situation as jeff9366. Really dense Gulf Coast sub-tropical jungle fare. These arent those walk-through woods yall have up north, dow'ncha'know?

I'd rather have a smaller cab tractor than a larger open station tractor.

Thats what I was thinking, like I said above, sub-tropical heat and humidity and lots of bugs, malaria, west nile, whatever.

The answer to this question is a DEFINITE MAYBE, since you have TIME.

I have three years non-commercial experience clearing Florida jungle, composed generally of wild grape vines, wild climbing rose, Virginia creeper, Smilax, Carolina Jasmine and assorted other vines running through sandy-loam soil and climbing desirable trees, loading the trees until they are pulled down. Did I mention Palmettos?

I began clearing with a used John Deere/Yanmar 750, found it too small and found I needed an FEL, so I bought a new Kubota B3300SU light frame tractor/loader and started to accumulate 5' to 6' implements and attachments. Worked B3300SU 400 hours but determined for productivity and safety reasons this rig was too small/light too. (If you have one or two tractor wheels off the ground regularly, sooner or later you are going to have an accident.)

Sold the B3300SU and bought a new Kubota L3560 heavy frame tractor/loader, which has heavy LA805 FEL paired with L2296 Heavy Duty 495 pound bucket. This combo has the weight to make tearing up jungle practical, if still a slow task. It is a slow task not because of the equipment but because of the huge volume of material which has to be disposed of as jungle is cleared. Fortunately, I can burn, so material is hauled to a burn pile in the middle of a one acre bare dirt area, stacked, allowed to dry a few days, then ignited with a propane torch. Collecting the debris is slow, hauling takes time, consolidating the burn pile both hot and cold takes time and burning safely requires supervision. Periodically, root dirt has to be reverse transported or the burn 'pile' grows.

(I Disc Harrow the burn pile field periodically, to maintain bare dirt.)

Generally I start by pulling Rotundfolia grape vines and climbing roses out of the trees. Primary attachment is a Ratchet Rake strapped to the bucket, which does a good job of holding vines while I back the tractor. For 3"+ vines I use 5/16" Grade 70 chain attached to rear center drawbar. I have twice pulled trees over when the vines would not release, so caution is important. I chip the largest vines, which is kind of fun, like slurping spaghetti, then scoop up everything else with Debris Forks on the bucket and transport to the burn pile.

During clearing, I have 60" Rollover Box Blade on the 3-Pt hitch as essential ballast. When I discover vine nodes, where a group of vines emerge from the soil, I drop the ROBB rippers and drag the vines on surface and 6" underground. More debris, wet.

Next I 'hog the area with a 5' Land Pride RCF2060 Rotary Cutter, 2" rated. To get through dense growth I need the Ratchet Rake on the bucket, near ground level to detect obstacles, (can't see at all, sometimes), work the bucket up and down as necessary to progress in HST/LOW pulling the roaring cutter. Have to be mindful vegetation ropes moving over the tractor do not snatch the controls. I keep loppers on board; sometimes have to stop and cut the operator's station free.

Then I clamp a $400 Bucket Solutions' Bucket Spade (110 pounds) to the bucket and dig out junk trees, junk palms, palmettos and wild rose corms. Now the ground is "open" but still littered. I use the Debris Forks to consolidate debris and transport-----you know where. Finally, I fork light debris with a pitchfork.

Next I use a Disk Harrow with 18" diameter notched pans to till, to disrupt roots. I generally make two or three passes with the harrow, getting deeper with each pass. (A Disc Harrow with 20" diameter notched pans would be considerably more effective.)

Then I use a 6' Everythingattachments.com (ETA) Landscape Rake, usually with gauge wheels, to get the area acceptably level and fill holes. Then I sow deer and wild turkey food plots and roll in seed with a Cultipacker.

Some stuff comes back, grape vines, wild climbing rose and Virginia Creeper being pernicious. For two years I used a two-gallon hand sprayer filled with Tractor Supply strong, generic, 2,4-D or 41% Glcophosphate with mixed success because repeat applications were required. Now I am experimenting with Bayer Advanced Brush Killer Plus, which specifically lists grape and wild rose as targets. I hope for one application kill.

(I consider these "residential" sprays hazardous. I wear a hat, long pants, long sleeves, safety glasses; spray, then shower and put on clean clothes. I have a careless relative, a smoker, who required hospitalization from exposure to Roundup.)

I calculate the cost of running my tractor, implements and attachments, at a minimum of $26 per hour. It requires 150 tractor engine hours per acre, plus many more man hours, to clear trees, prep land and burn debris.

What a great walk-through Jeff! You seem to be locked and loaded for the Gulf South. I dont have that bevy of attachments you have or the 10s of thousands of dollars needed to acquire them. But Im in swamp jungle just like you and I will certainly be referencing your post in the future moving forward, but for now Im going to have to make do with just a FEL and maybe have to spring for a grapple sooner rather than later.

jeff,
Clearing land in the deep south is an ongoing battle for sure, btdt. Hope you win and be safe. I grew up in New Orleans and my family had a few pieces of property in Louisiana and Mississippi, I well remember as a teen having to clear the land and fence rows that were overgrown every summer. Having a dozer helped some but the hand work can be a huge challenge.

:dance1: Im from NOLA!!! Born in Baton Rouge, raised in New Orleans my whole life. I live across the Lake in St. Tammany Parish now just outside Big Branch Marsh so you know the battle Im fighting.:confused2:

I don't see pump flow as a primary consideration for picking a machine. It's an important spec to be aware of, but not key to the decision....especially if you have time, because it really only impacts how quickly the loader will raise, curl, etc, not how much it will lift.

Really? I thought there was a direct correlation from hydraulic pump flow to FEL lift/breakout capacity. I noticed that some spec sheets show higher lift/breakout capacities for the same FEL on different machines with better hydraulics.

Digging stumps or trenches is a pain with an FEL, but can kinda/sorta be done...you're usually going to take a lot longer, make a bigger mess, and probably not be as happy with the final product.

Like I said, time I got, its money thats falling behind.

 

[GManBart]

Ive noticed that the dedicated compact TLBs were much stronger for their size than the comparable CUTs that they are built off of. Im worried that a dedicated machine like an L35 or 110 wouldnt have the provisions needed to run other common farming implements(3ph?) or that the attachment selection would be low, very expensive, non-existent or not possible. Im under the impression that the Kubota/Deere compact TLBs are built only for a loader and backhoe and possibly only their particular loader/backhoe.

Im also concerned that in the future parts and attachment availability would be lower with a dedicated compact TLB because they arent as common or as universal. Is this a logical assumption?

The other issue is weight of the dedicated TLBs. They are much heavier than comparable CUTs with an FEL and backhoe. I address the weight issue further down in my post. My tow capacity limits me to CUTs.


Really? I thought there was a direct correlation from hydraulic pump flow to FEL lift/breakout capacity. I noticed that some spec sheets show higher lift/breakout capacities for the same FEL on different machines with better hydraulics.

Dedicated TLBs like the Deere 110 and Kubota L35 still have a normal PTO that can be used with typical 3pt implements (with the hoe off, of course). You really aren't limited in what they're compatible with. As far as the loader, I'm not sure whether either/both come standard with an SSQA plate, but you could easily add one, and they would accept anything that would work on a skid steer or CUT.

As far as hydraulics go, the simplified version is that the flow rate determines how fast the loader will raise, lower, and curl, and pressure determines how much the loader can actually lift. So, if you put the loader on a machine that has a pump capable of higher pressure, the loader will lift more. If that pump also has a higher flow rate, you'd also get faster cycle times. It's a bit more complicated than that, when doing comparisons, but that's the general idea.

 

[TSO]

Nola ... I think you need to make a few decisions here, otherwise you're going to be stuck in limbo with no direction.

If your tow vehicle can only tow 7700 lbs, then you'll need at least a dual 3500lb axle trailer, rated at 7000. That trailer will weigh somewhere around 1800lbs, so in theory, you'll be able to load around 5000lbs onto it. This trailer will cost you somewhere around $2500.

Most of the tractors you are looking at will NOT work on this setup. For example, a Deere 4120 is probably going to weigh somewhere around 3400lbs by itself, NOT counting the loader, which will probably be another 1000. Then add the weight of fluids, etc, and you're already pushing that 5000lb load capacity ..... BEFORE you even get to the backhoe. I don't have the specific weights of all the tractors you have included in your list, but you're going to run into the same issue with most of them.

So, the decision you'll have to make is this: Do you want a backhoe or not? From what I've seen on this forum, there's not a whole lot extra that you need to do to remove the backhoe from the TLB machines that have been listed, compared to a standard CUT with an add-on hoe. You can get them with the 3pt optional, so you can still use 3pt implements like normal, with maybe a few more steps.

If you DO want a backhoe, and you are expecting to trailer it around, then you're going to have to stick with a smaller machine than what you've mentioned. For example, take Kubota's 1st & 2nd TLB they list. The Kubota B26 is 4000lbs total (not counting fluids) so that gives you some wiggle room. But, as soon as you step up to an L39, you're at 7000lbs before fluids.

Even if you choose a mid-to-large machine that is a standard CUT, then add a Hoe, you are going to be overweight. So, it looks to me like if you want to have a Hoe, with the towing setup you have, you are going to have to stay small. Under 30hp.

 

[bumperm]

Good info so far, not sure I can add much. However, consider that if you do decide you want a backhoe, when purchasing used, it's almost always less expensive to buy it *with* the tractor as a package. However, when really good TLB deals come up, they don't last very long at all, so you have to check the ads every day.

As an example, new retail price on my 2008 BX24 was about 19K. With low times and good condition, they have an asking prices of 15K or so. I lucked out when I saw the ad for for my BX24 with an asking price of 11.5K, 90hrs, garaged, Kubota sunroof and new box scraper included. I called immediately and committed to buy if the tractor was as represented. By the time I arrived w/trailer to pick it up the next evening, the lady selling had 7 more buyers with two of those offering over her asking price. I got a smoking good deal!

I also own a new B3350 with BH77 hoe. The BX24 hoe will do much of what the BH77 hoe will do, but take more time doing it. For a SCUT, the BX is really pretty amazing.

Seems to me that when I was shopping for a TLB, they don't come up all that often on the west coast - - much more of a selection back east. And when really good deals come up, they are snapped up the same day.

bumper

 

[joeu235]

This is the best thing I've found for clearing land.

 

[arlen4720]

Really? I thought there was a direct correlation from hydraulic pump flow to FEL lift/breakout capacity. I noticed that some spec sheets show higher lift/breakout capacities for the same FEL on different machines with better hydraulics.

Like Gman said, the flow is only a factor of the cycle time and speed of hydraulic attachments. Depending on how and what you operate, it still could be pretty important.
Some machines, like the JD 110, have an exceptional flow rate AND a high system pressure (3000psi), compared to the 2500psi common in most CUT's. Consequently, it has more lift and breakout force than most CUT's as well as great cycle times.

 

[arlen4720]

This is the best thing I've found for clearing land.

That would work great in my neck of the woods, but I don't think it would fare too well in the Florida jungle.

 

[joeu235]

It would work in swamp for a couple minutes until the tires sank in and it high centered.

 

[jenkinsph]

It would work in swamp for a couple minutes until the tires sank in and it high centered.

And it would be tough to get out of there too.

This thread reminds me why I live in the Rocky Mountains now. While I miss the food I don't miss the climate.