Kubota vs. Deere

bigpete · Sep 13, 2005

Okay, I jumped in because a Kubota/New Holland salesman stated in a JD Forum that he thought JD's literature was deceptive to consumers--a very strong statement, indeed. Now I learn that all tractor manufacturers except Kubota are deceiving customers if that standard holds water. Where are we with that allegation? ...and does anyone actually have the comparable numbers--center bucket. 500 MM, pivot pin, breakout force, whatever--since Kubota is forthright enought to provide all measurement points, including possibly the same point as is used by JD for the 210 or 200CX. Why doesn't Kubota make those spec statements on their Website and which literature are you guys talking about? Kubota sell-in or tech literature? Just curious and still a little befuddled about the reason for the sniping when there are still no facts offered /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif.

dmax03 · Sep 13, 2005

You seem to be well informed. Do you know the difference in engines between the 2210 and 2305? I test drove both and could tell an audible difference. I know there is about 1 hp diff. but I just wondered if there was more to it than a bore or stroke change.

johndeere_2210 · Sep 13, 2005

Not sure anyone would notice the .5 hp difference 23.5 vs. 24, but I will say the 2210 is not underpowered and has plenty of power to do what the machine is capable of doing; that is, I have never been in a situation where I thought power was a concern vs. what I think the tractor is capable of doing, and I would add this was the same for the BX2230.

Bob_Skurka · Sep 13, 2005

( Okay, I jumped in because a Kubota/New Holland salesman stated in a JD Forum that he thought JD's literature was deceptive to consumers--a very strong statement, indeed. Now I learn that all tractor manufacturers except Kubota are deceiving customers if that standard holds water. Where are we with that allegation? ...and does anyone actually have the comparable numbers--center bucket. 500 MM, pivot pin, breakout force, whatever--since Kubota is forthright enought to provide all measurement points, including possibly the same point as is used by JD for the 210 or 200CX. Why doesn't Kubota make those spec statements on their Website and which literature are you guys talking about? Kubota sell-in or tech literature? Just curious and still a little befuddled about the reason for the sniping when there are still no facts offered to back up a criminal, or at least ethical, allegation (of which deceptive advertising is) /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. )

Pete,

My observations are these.

Case, Kubota, Massey and New Holland provide FEL numbers at the 500mm point in front of the pivot point. That point is commonly (but not technically accurately) called the bucket center point. The 500mm measuring point is a "real world" measuring point since it actually measures the load as it would be inside the bucket where you and I actually put a load.

Deere quotes ASAE standards and typically provides a standard number, but it is virutally impossible for a normal consumer to find out where that point is with a reasonable level of due dillegence. But I can tell you that in their marketing material they provide pivot point, not so-called bucket center, or the 500mm point. However, Deere does provide infromation if you dig really hard (it took Mike Mc/rockeyridgefarm to point out to me where to find the data and I dug for it pretty darn hard).

Most of the minor brands provide even less information, don't provide any standard, don't support the Nebraska tests (which are standard tests of 40hp+ tractors) and some are downright vague.

As for some of your specific questions about Kubota, their brochures list multiple measuring points. Their website does the same thing. If you can get the downloadable brochure from New Holland, you will find the same type of information. Ditto Case. Ditto Massey. All of these sources are sales/marketing materials. None are tech materials. The fact they they list the lower 500mm number actually makes their capacities appear to be weak, to me that is actually the honest number.

I'm not here to defend Neil, but I don't see anywhere in his statement that he said JD was acting in a criminal way. Do I think that JD is being honest. Yes I do. But they are being honest in a limited way. They give a technically correct answer.

But I ask you, are they giving a useful answer? Or maybe who is giving a useful answer? JMHO, but my suggestion is that when I load a bucket I actually put material inside the bucket, I don't hang it on a load cell from the pivot point.

To carry the point futher, when I attach something to a 3pt hitch, usually the load I attach is carried well behind the ball eyes. So for that I applaud the companies who provide capacities at the point 24" behind the ball eyes. JD is one of those companies. But so are Case, Kubota, & New Holland.

I think when we look at deceptive, there is the question of legally correct, but still confusing. That is a form of being deceptive, yet still providing information that is legal. Does JD participate in that? Well I won't say yes, nor will I say no. But I will say that some of their marketing materials certainly could be more useful.

Bob_Skurka · Sep 13, 2005

( You seem to be well informed. Do you know the difference in engines between the 2210 and 2305? I test drove both and could tell an audible difference. I know there is about 1 hp diff. but I just wondered if there was more to it than a bore or stroke change. )

Nope. Sorry but I've done extensive studies of the loaders of various brands but I'm not really an engine guy.

I do know that the JD loaders are of very high quality and are very capable, and while my prior posts may be taken as being very critical of the loaders, the fact is the loader are good. The marketing materials that sell the loaders are what I think need some dramatic improvement.

rockyridgefarm · Sep 14, 2005

2210 3TNE74
2305 3TNV76

The new machine has a Tier2 Emmissions ready engine. This is a total new design that is cleaner and designes to be much quieter. While Yanamr shows the new engines to match the old spec for spec; Deere acts as if they are slightly detuned, and each model was bumped up an engine size.

74 and 76 refers to bore in mm.

orangebluegreen · Sep 14, 2005

I have done a lot of stock analysis over the years and read many annual and quarterly reports. One thing I have found to be universal throughout any company has been the following:

All companies are able to reduce their reading and/or specifications to easily understood and compared terms. In almost every case I have seen where you scratch your head and have to read and reread something to understand it and are still not sure you understand, there is a reason the person wrote it that way (they usually do not want you to understand it.) The only case where this might differ is a company who doesn’t agree with a standard and is trying to change it. I am not familiar with the standards on measure of loaders, (if not used for business it makes little difference if it takes 20 loads or 100) but the measuring numbers not being directly comparable is similar to what I’ve experienced in many company reports.

I’ve also noticed overall “rear tread” and “overall widths” missing from JD’s 2210 info vs. BX2230’s. To anyone interested in a subcut this is a critical measurement. So do I believe this information is not there because JD’s width does not compare favorably to KUB?

dmax03 · Sep 14, 2005

Thanks that is some good info. I suspected there was a difference, but the dealer did not know. How did you find this info out? Have any good web sites?

rockyridgefarm · Sep 14, 2005

How did you find this info out? Have any good web sites? 

Yup! Super Secret web page Don't tell! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

18KwPower · Sep 15, 2005

I agree with most of what you said... However the comment about the BX2230 3pt seems strange. I've a full size Cat 1 implement on my BX2230 now.... The main thing is that the Kubota 3pt has link adjustments that need a wrench. BTW, my previous tractors were a JD445 (Cat0) and Ford 9N(Cat1). Where the difference is between the JD2210 and KubotaBX2230 is in the 3pt lift height and draft... Otherwise the specs aren't that far apart. They will both accept the smaller Cat1 implements found at most farm stores... and depending on size/weight/power necessary they will accept a number of the Full Cat1 implements. I didn't spend much time comparing how easy or hard it was to hook up 3pt items to the BX2230 vs JD2210 (3305now?). I was more impressed with the fact that the loader on the BX2230 came off/on easier than the deere. Esp compared to my JD445. Not to mention that the 60"mower deck went on/off the BX2230 way better than my JD445. I usually had to jack the front of the JD445 up to get the mower deck off/on. On the BX2230, I turn the front wheels a little one direction and it rolls right out from under.

Gone are the days I had to crawl around on the floor hooking up hydraulic connectors on the JD445 too. The BX2230 hydraulics connectors are up by the loader control, so are easy to connect/disconnect.

The major factor in my choice of the BX2230 over the 2210 was the turning radius. The BX2230 turns almost as tight as my 445 did... The longer wheelbase of the 2210 wasn't in its favor on this.

-Dave

( If you are interested, this is my comments regarding the two machines. I have owned them both (BX2230 and now a 2210). I really think you can toss a blanket across them in terms of "which will last longer" for they are both built at a very high level. I feel the 2210 or 2305 has some significant advantages. First, the 3-point arms on the 2210 are significantly longer and open wider/easier than the BX. In fact, I had a Kubota dealer guy tell me the arms on the BX are Cat 0 size in terms of length and opening, but the pins are Cat 1 and I'm here to tell you there is a MAJOR difference in ease in hooking attachments up behind a 2210 (easy) vs. BX (much more difficult) and keep in mind, it is the same carry over attachments. IMO, this is the single biggest advantage.

[snip]
) /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif