Kubota vs. Woods backhoe

   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #1  

BeauGeste

New member
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
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14
I'm looking to get a 7.5' backhoe on a B7800. The obvious possibility is the Kubota backhoe. That's a 3-point hitch mount, with PTO hydraulics. Another possibility is the Woods BH7500, which is a subframe mount and uses, in the configuration I'm looking at, tractor hydraulics. The dealer would modify the tractor hydraulics to provide the rear lines.

So, what are the differences? I can see positives for both sides. Using Kubota on Kubota seems obvious. Someone said that Kubota's tractor warranty doesn't cover harm from a 3rd party backhoe. What about PTO hydraulics vs. tractor?
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #2  
I prefer the woods on that tractor. You get more flow from the tractor hydraulics than the PTO pump and the woods mount is more secure than kubota's. Kubota is actually comming out with a hoe much like the woods. Its not to market yet. Now if you want a real beast of a hoe take a look at Bradco. They have a great setup too.
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #3  
I'd say it's a quasi 3-point hitch mount.

I was going to go with a Prairie Dog hoe (knock-off of a Woods 7500) on our B2910 until I read a thread on here raising the potential warranty issue.

The price on the PD 'hoe was around $4500 (cash) - for a unit that the dealer claimed to be new (last years model) but he had left sitting outside over the winter with the cylinder surfaces exposed - had some pitting on the rods and the paint was pretty weathered. Hoses and seat were in decent condition though.

I contacted the dealer we bought the B2910 from and asked him to give me a price on the Kubota BL4690B 'hoe, shipped direct to me and I would do the assembly and set up (which was a PITA, but doable for me) It was $6100 plus tax and I would be able to finance it through KCC for 3 years if I wanted.

Given the relatively small difference in price, the ability to finance, and the fact that I would be getting a brand-new unit, we ended up going with the Kubota 'hoe. The unit works fairly decently, although when you try to operate more than one cylinder at a time it does have a tendency to stall one of the cylinders being operated - not sure whether this is lack of output from the pump, or design/configuration of the 'hoe spool valve. I generally only run the tractor at 1500 - 1800 rpm when operating the 'hoe and that might have something to do with it as well. So far I've used it to dig 250' of 3' deep trench for a french drain and to pull about a dozen stumps. I have both the 16" and 10" buckets, have never used the 10" yet.

The Kubota hoe does use a subframe of sorts - the one that comes with the FEL is required for the BH. To use the 'hoe the tractor must have a FEL mounted. Basically, the subframe is a pair of steel frame rails that tie the loader/front to the rear of the tractor. Another advantage was that the Kubota 'hoe did not require the removal of the MMM (needs to be pinned in the top position though) - not that I'd want to leave the MMM on when I had a lot of backhoe work to do, but for a quick job it's one less thing to have to take off.
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #4  
My brother-in-law had the same dilemma when he purchased his 4310 a couple of months ago. We specced them both out and found the WOODS had more capacity. The WOODS even came in Kubota ORANGE.
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe
  • Thread Starter
#5  
OK. If it is a Woods, should it be PTO hydraulics or tractor hydraulics? The tractor hydraulics sounds easier (given that the dealer would modify the B7800's hydraulics for the rear outlets), but I have heard that the PTO hydraulics are more powerful and not really much of a bother to set up and remove.

Others thoughts?
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #6  
I suspect both the PTO and Engine dirven pump will develop the same "power"--pressure actually.

What you should check is the pump volume. Check the ratings for both at the same engine speed. More pump volume will get the job done quicker.

To answer the next question: Do you have to run the tractor engine at a faster speed to run the backhoe?

There has been a hot debate here on Tractorbynet.com about the engine speed at which to operate your tractor at while running the backhoe. Some say run at full PTO speed, some say slow it down. It comes down to experience and desired speed of digging.

For a beginning backhoe operator, the backhoe will be jerky to operate at first. Try the first ten or so hours of use at ~75% of PTO speed, which on a B7610 is around 2,000 rpm, maybe even 1,800 RPM for the first several hours. This is just to keep the bucking down as you learn. What happens is at first you tend to operate only one control/spool/valve/cylinder at a time and all the pump power goes to that one cylinder and it operates real fast--too fast--especially in swing and boom lift. So, running at slower speed, things slow down and you get used to feathering the valves and doing multiple operations simultaneously.

As experience comes you begin to do multiple operations simultaneously and the backhoe will seem too slow. It actually will be slower because the pump power is spread across several functions. You can now speed up the engine and get faster cycle times. When you can "rake" the ground level toward you with the bucket teeth, you've gotten the feel of how to feather the valves and multiple valve operation down. And, you can likely run the engine at PTO speed comfortably. This will get the work done quicker, you will get tired of the length of time it takes to swing the bucket out and back.

One more tip--The greatest power of the backhoe is in the bucket curl. And it's best applied closer to the tractor when the curl is coming up out of the hole, this pulls down the back end of the tractor against the outriggers and exerts great force. Running the curl out at the boom extension limit will try to drag the tractor backwards--and it will succeed most of the time.

You will be tempted to operate the curl and boom or dipper simultaneously in hard to dig situations. This actually decreases the power available as the boom or dipper will stall and open the pressure relief valve, dumping hydraulic fluid and power. The bucket curl is the most powerful of the controls, use it alone in tough dig situations.

On the humorous side, you will catch your self pulling real hard on the backhoe controls in tough digging—to try and “help” the tractor dig. When you catch your self doing this—ease up. You’ll only wear yourself out, get a stiff neck, sore shoulders and back. Ask me how I know.
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #7  
<font color="blue"> On the humorous side, you will catch your self pulling real hard on the backhoe controls in tough digging—to try and “help” the tractor dig. When you catch your self doing this—ease up. You’ll only wear yourself out, get a stiff neck, sore shoulders and back. Ask me how I know.
</font>

Dave, that is both funny and so true! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I recently briefly used a friends excavator and was surprised at how easy the joysticks are to move, compared to my backhoe!

One thing to consider is if you want to use a MMM you might have a interference problem if you go with a sub frame type backhoe. Worth checking in to.

Overall, warranty issues aside, a true subframe backhoe has to be better than a 3PH backhoe I would think. I have a 3PH backhoe...but really would prefer a subframe hoe for the long term. Just seems better....
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #8  
I have a Woods 7 1/2 foot BH on my B7800, Works really well. Talked to the dealer at the time of purchase and he insisted on the Woods because of the subframe. He said a backhoe that attaches to the 3PH put to much strain on the rear of the tractor and could cause damage to the rear end,and the sub frame is the way to go. It onlt take about ten minutes to remove it or reconnect it. Five cotterpins and two hydrolic lines. I didn't need the PTO hydrolic pump just another valve on the front loader controll,it seems to have plenty of power for what I need it for.
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #9  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( OK. If it is a Woods, should it be PTO hydraulics or tractor hydraulics? The tractor hydraulics sounds easier (given that the dealer would modify the B7800's hydraulics for the rear outlets), but I have heard that the PTO hydraulics are more powerful and not really much of a bother to set up and remove.

Others thoughts? )</font>

I have a Woods 7500 on my L3010 and opted for using the remotes. Never regretted the decision as set up is a snap and there's more than enough power for the hoe. I usually operate the hoe at around 2000rpms as it matches my personal rhythm.

Adding to the humorous side, while Clementine was in the shop getting the hoe installed along with the 600 hour service, I read the Woods manual and started practicing the control movements just like Daniel San doing "wax on, wax off" in Karate Kid! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pete
 
   / Kubota vs. Woods backhoe #10  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Using Kubota on Kubota seems obvious. Someone said that Kubota's tractor warranty doesn't cover harm from a 3rd party backhoe.)</font>

It would at first. So I bought a Kubota Loader for my Kubota tractor. It is Kubota model# LA1162 - and when I got it I couldn't help but notice the steel tags riveted on the loader which read "WOODS EQUIPMENT COMPANY" /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 

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