Land lease scam
- Thread starter john_bud
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Shirleyshusband
Bronze Member
Hi John,
Sure sorry to read about your grief. If this is who I think it is, we should talk. I sent a pm.
Jags, like this just give everyone a bad name and it especially tarnishes hunting and hunters.
Sure sorry to read about your grief. If this is who I think it is, we should talk. I sent a pm.
Jags, like this just give everyone a bad name and it especially tarnishes hunting and hunters.
rox
Veteran Member
I got quite an education about hunting on this thread. I'm amazed at how much it can cost and that people will pay that much.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Rox,
The cost of hunting can vary allot depending on where you hunt and what you hunt. If you hunt deer in the state that you are a resident, then it's fairly inexpensive. You have to possess a hunting license for that year and a stamp or permit for a deer. Fees for this are anywhere from $20 to the $40 t0 $60 range, depending on your state. If you want to hunt deer in another state that you do not live in, then you have to buy an out of state license and tags. This is where it starts to get expensive depending on the state. This can get very complicated if you are trying to apply for an area with a very limited number of tags. Some places have less then one percent of people who apply that actually get a tag for that animal. Some of these places have a lottery of some kind, while others it just pure luck if you get drawn or not. There are deadlines and application fees. Some have to be paid up front and then after the drawing, if you are not successful, you get a full or partial refund. This might be several months later, and it might be over a thousand dollars just to get into the draw. Other species other then deer vary allot in their price. Pronghorn Antelope are pretty cheap and easy to get a tag for, elk can be tough, moose can be very tough and sheep are almost impossible. The better the reputation for an area and the quality of the animals in that area has allot to do with how many people apply. With enough applications, the state can raise the price of the tags almost as much as they want. If they are only selling 20 out of state tags for species in a certain area, but get ten thousand applications, they don't care if they double the price of that tag and only get five thousand applications. They are still only selling those ten tags. The five dollar, non refundable processing fee on allot of tags is also a source of income, but not much of a profit for them considering they have to enter and process all the information on those applications.
That's just a very small part of what it takes to be able to hunt. Then the real money gets into when finding a place to hunt. Buying the tag and not having a place to go is foolish. There are public lands that you can hunt on, and in some states, that hunting is fantastic. Especially in those places that strictly limit how many tags are sold. Then you can just show up and start hunting during the season. If you want some help, there are guides and outfitters that you can hire, and depending on what they provide and their reputation for success, will depend on what you pay. Allot of my hunts have been into wilderness areas that do not allow an engine of any kind. The only way in is to walk or ride a horse or pack animal of some kind. For a grand or two, you can have a pack train that will take you in ten to 20 miles and then pick you up a week later. Some will provide tents, other times, it's just the horses.
For other places, you will need to lease or pay a trespass fee to hunt on somebody else's land. Usually you split the price for the ranch with a bunch of friends, but sometimes one outfitter might lease a bunch of properties and then sublease that right to hunt on the land individually. I've done both, and had both good and poor results.
In John's case, he let a guy lease his land to hunt on it, but unknown to him, that guy then sold those rights to others. This was in violation of the lease, so that's what made it illegal. He violated other laws, but in most cases, this happens all the time. The landowner makes extra money for owning the land by leasing it out to those who hunt on it for a few weeks. On a good ranch, that can easily pay for the taxes or become a relied upon part of the yearly income for the property. With the right people leasing the land, it's a win/win for everyone and why it's so popular. The landowner isn't going to hunt the land, or he's only shooting one or two deer off of the place, when the property is big enough or populated to the level that it can support all more animals to be harvested. I've hunted on ranches that were tens of thousands of acres and dozens of hunters took dozens of animals. These ranches do this year after year and make six figures off of the game on those ranches. The animals are protected and their habitat is improved to increase the health of the animals on the ranch. In some cases, the landowner makes enough money on the land that it's only used for hunting.
It too bad that John has to deal with these people and their disregard for the law, but it's also not very uncommon where the land doesn't have any real value for hunting. If it did, then it would be economical to hire patrols to keep them off of the land and protect the animals. This is what saved allot of animals in Africa and Europe. The locals would just kill the animals year round for food and to get rid of them as competition for their livestock. When the wild, native animals became valuable to the locals and the landowners, they change their ways and stop those from poaching those animals.
Eddie
The cost of hunting can vary allot depending on where you hunt and what you hunt. If you hunt deer in the state that you are a resident, then it's fairly inexpensive. You have to possess a hunting license for that year and a stamp or permit for a deer. Fees for this are anywhere from $20 to the $40 t0 $60 range, depending on your state. If you want to hunt deer in another state that you do not live in, then you have to buy an out of state license and tags. This is where it starts to get expensive depending on the state. This can get very complicated if you are trying to apply for an area with a very limited number of tags. Some places have less then one percent of people who apply that actually get a tag for that animal. Some of these places have a lottery of some kind, while others it just pure luck if you get drawn or not. There are deadlines and application fees. Some have to be paid up front and then after the drawing, if you are not successful, you get a full or partial refund. This might be several months later, and it might be over a thousand dollars just to get into the draw. Other species other then deer vary allot in their price. Pronghorn Antelope are pretty cheap and easy to get a tag for, elk can be tough, moose can be very tough and sheep are almost impossible. The better the reputation for an area and the quality of the animals in that area has allot to do with how many people apply. With enough applications, the state can raise the price of the tags almost as much as they want. If they are only selling 20 out of state tags for species in a certain area, but get ten thousand applications, they don't care if they double the price of that tag and only get five thousand applications. They are still only selling those ten tags. The five dollar, non refundable processing fee on allot of tags is also a source of income, but not much of a profit for them considering they have to enter and process all the information on those applications.
That's just a very small part of what it takes to be able to hunt. Then the real money gets into when finding a place to hunt. Buying the tag and not having a place to go is foolish. There are public lands that you can hunt on, and in some states, that hunting is fantastic. Especially in those places that strictly limit how many tags are sold. Then you can just show up and start hunting during the season. If you want some help, there are guides and outfitters that you can hire, and depending on what they provide and their reputation for success, will depend on what you pay. Allot of my hunts have been into wilderness areas that do not allow an engine of any kind. The only way in is to walk or ride a horse or pack animal of some kind. For a grand or two, you can have a pack train that will take you in ten to 20 miles and then pick you up a week later. Some will provide tents, other times, it's just the horses.
For other places, you will need to lease or pay a trespass fee to hunt on somebody else's land. Usually you split the price for the ranch with a bunch of friends, but sometimes one outfitter might lease a bunch of properties and then sublease that right to hunt on the land individually. I've done both, and had both good and poor results.
In John's case, he let a guy lease his land to hunt on it, but unknown to him, that guy then sold those rights to others. This was in violation of the lease, so that's what made it illegal. He violated other laws, but in most cases, this happens all the time. The landowner makes extra money for owning the land by leasing it out to those who hunt on it for a few weeks. On a good ranch, that can easily pay for the taxes or become a relied upon part of the yearly income for the property. With the right people leasing the land, it's a win/win for everyone and why it's so popular. The landowner isn't going to hunt the land, or he's only shooting one or two deer off of the place, when the property is big enough or populated to the level that it can support all more animals to be harvested. I've hunted on ranches that were tens of thousands of acres and dozens of hunters took dozens of animals. These ranches do this year after year and make six figures off of the game on those ranches. The animals are protected and their habitat is improved to increase the health of the animals on the ranch. In some cases, the landowner makes enough money on the land that it's only used for hunting.
It too bad that John has to deal with these people and their disregard for the law, but it's also not very uncommon where the land doesn't have any real value for hunting. If it did, then it would be economical to hire patrols to keep them off of the land and protect the animals. This is what saved allot of animals in Africa and Europe. The locals would just kill the animals year round for food and to get rid of them as competition for their livestock. When the wild, native animals became valuable to the locals and the landowners, they change their ways and stop those from poaching those animals.
Eddie
Tororider
Veteran Member
Speaking of out of state tag fees, Illinois does it an interesting way. They charge you what your state charges for an out of state tag. So if your state charges an out of state person $250 for deer tag, that is what you pay. Reciprocity, pretty cool idea if you ask me.
Richard
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If I may show my ignorance... by 'book', you mean something big/good enough to be in a record book?
furthermore, would this mean one of the top three, five, fifty...or would it have to be a record breaker ?
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
There are several different organizations that keep recored of animals taken. The move famous in this country is the Boone and Crockett organization. Their basic rule is that you must take the animal out in the wild during legal hunting season and with a legal method. It's for North American animals and you have to pay a fee to enter an animal into their book. I forget if they publish a book every year or every other year. Then if your name is in there, you can go to that species and look down the list for your name. It will list when you shot your animal, the county it was shot and what it scored.
There are organizations for just Europe and Africa, namely Rowland Ward, and then Safari Club International lists every animal species and method of take in the world. There are books for just method of take, like Pope and Young for archer also. I don't know all of them, but have never entered an animal in any of them either. I've looked at the books, but don't really care who shot what, or how many animals they have in there. What I like about the book is it gives you a benchmark to know where an animal is big or not.
For a whitetail deer to qualify for Boone & Crockett, it has to score 190 for the all time book. They have a variety of books and entries, but for a typical rack to make it, the ideal is for it to be perfectly even on both sides and have very long tines with good width. The score is based on the length of the tines, the main beams, the inside width of the rack and the thickness of it. That number is measured in eighth of inches for a total gross score. Then the uneven and extra points are deducted for a net score. It's a very rare deer that reaches 190 net points and qualifies for the book. Other books have different scoring systems and lower minimums to enter. Boone and Crockett is the most prestigious organization because it's the hardest to get into. I've never shot an animal that comes close to their standards, but have allot that could make it into the other books.
Knowing that number of 190 for whitetail deer gives trophy hunters a standard of what is good in a rack. Anything under that is still a great trophy, but then it's up to the shooter to decide how great a trophy it actually is. For me, a whitetail that scores over 150 is a great buck. Mine scores 135, so it gives you an idea of where it stands on the scale of things. It's a good buck and too big to pass up, but my goal is still to shoot one over 150. I've passed up dozens and dozens of lesser bucks in that goal, which is what qualifies me as a trophy hunter. I'm not interested in shooting a buck that scores less then what I'm looking for.
This applies for all species all over the world. I have two animals that are in the top 30's in the world. My Thar and Mouflon. There are also several dozen others who have entered their animals with that exact score who I would be tied with. I have animals that qualify for Rowland Ward and the Longhunters Record Book. Everything qualifies for Safari Club as they have very low standards to enter, but break it down into medal awards. Bronze medal animals are just about anything that's mature and decent sized. Their gold medal awards are closer to Boone & Crockett levels, but still not quite. I have all medal awards in my trophies, but prefer SCI for just knowing what species are out there and what ones that I'd like to hunt one day.
Here's my whitetail that I shot in Wyoming.
Eddie
There are organizations for just Europe and Africa, namely Rowland Ward, and then Safari Club International lists every animal species and method of take in the world. There are books for just method of take, like Pope and Young for archer also. I don't know all of them, but have never entered an animal in any of them either. I've looked at the books, but don't really care who shot what, or how many animals they have in there. What I like about the book is it gives you a benchmark to know where an animal is big or not.
For a whitetail deer to qualify for Boone & Crockett, it has to score 190 for the all time book. They have a variety of books and entries, but for a typical rack to make it, the ideal is for it to be perfectly even on both sides and have very long tines with good width. The score is based on the length of the tines, the main beams, the inside width of the rack and the thickness of it. That number is measured in eighth of inches for a total gross score. Then the uneven and extra points are deducted for a net score. It's a very rare deer that reaches 190 net points and qualifies for the book. Other books have different scoring systems and lower minimums to enter. Boone and Crockett is the most prestigious organization because it's the hardest to get into. I've never shot an animal that comes close to their standards, but have allot that could make it into the other books.
Knowing that number of 190 for whitetail deer gives trophy hunters a standard of what is good in a rack. Anything under that is still a great trophy, but then it's up to the shooter to decide how great a trophy it actually is. For me, a whitetail that scores over 150 is a great buck. Mine scores 135, so it gives you an idea of where it stands on the scale of things. It's a good buck and too big to pass up, but my goal is still to shoot one over 150. I've passed up dozens and dozens of lesser bucks in that goal, which is what qualifies me as a trophy hunter. I'm not interested in shooting a buck that scores less then what I'm looking for.
This applies for all species all over the world. I have two animals that are in the top 30's in the world. My Thar and Mouflon. There are also several dozen others who have entered their animals with that exact score who I would be tied with. I have animals that qualify for Rowland Ward and the Longhunters Record Book. Everything qualifies for Safari Club as they have very low standards to enter, but break it down into medal awards. Bronze medal animals are just about anything that's mature and decent sized. Their gold medal awards are closer to Boone & Crockett levels, but still not quite. I have all medal awards in my trophies, but prefer SCI for just knowing what species are out there and what ones that I'd like to hunt one day.
Here's my whitetail that I shot in Wyoming.
Eddie
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CurlyDave
Elite Member
JB:
I am late to the thread, but I think you ought to look at this through a different lens.
He has done you a great favor. Now you know what the land is really worth as a hunting lease, and can charge appropriately in future years.
He scammed you once, but you are smart enough to not be scammed again. If he had not scammed you, you would have continued to lease it for a few hundred for a long time. The value of the education you got far exceeds whatever he took from you, which I think is going to be hard to prove and collect.
Start looking for some reputable guides who will lease the land next year and beyond. A reputable guide may also help you police the land, since he won't want someone else poaching on land he pas paid to use.
I am late to the thread, but I think you ought to look at this through a different lens.
He has done you a great favor. Now you know what the land is really worth as a hunting lease, and can charge appropriately in future years.
He scammed you once, but you are smart enough to not be scammed again. If he had not scammed you, you would have continued to lease it for a few hundred for a long time. The value of the education you got far exceeds whatever he took from you, which I think is going to be hard to prove and collect.
Start looking for some reputable guides who will lease the land next year and beyond. A reputable guide may also help you police the land, since he won't want someone else poaching on land he pas paid to use.
Curly,
Maybe. I emailed back and forth with a 2nd warden recently. The first is being reassigned to a new area. My take is that they REALLY REALLY want this guy hung up to dry in the hot sun (with red ant sprinkles). I'm not sure what he did to rile them up, but he did it. The wardens want me to wait on civil proceedings until the criminal case(s) are thru the investigation stage. Then they will share the info with me and I can go from there. They are currently working with wardens in a different state, so this is a fairly large serious case. The wardens have been very nice and easy to work with by the way. Makes me wonder more about the guys that grumble about them...
The "silver lining" is that it has me thinking about it in different ways. My current thought process is circling around getting a guide license myself, but creating an area for disabled hunters and do it in a non-profit manor. It's tough enough being disabled and most don't have the extra $$ for a decent place to hunt. I have a buddy that is 30-40% disabled with 2 bum shoulders that won't heal. Constant severe pain, but he soldiers on through it. I may see if he wants to get a guide license and do that. He lives to hunt, is a wealth of hunting/woods knowledge and a born mentor.
Naturally, it would require making smooth trails that could be wheel chair accessed, ground blinds, food plots, water holes etc to bring the deer in closer to the fewer places a disabled hunter could reach. Lot's of tractor opportunities there!
jb
Maybe. I emailed back and forth with a 2nd warden recently. The first is being reassigned to a new area. My take is that they REALLY REALLY want this guy hung up to dry in the hot sun (with red ant sprinkles). I'm not sure what he did to rile them up, but he did it. The wardens want me to wait on civil proceedings until the criminal case(s) are thru the investigation stage. Then they will share the info with me and I can go from there. They are currently working with wardens in a different state, so this is a fairly large serious case. The wardens have been very nice and easy to work with by the way. Makes me wonder more about the guys that grumble about them...
The "silver lining" is that it has me thinking about it in different ways. My current thought process is circling around getting a guide license myself, but creating an area for disabled hunters and do it in a non-profit manor. It's tough enough being disabled and most don't have the extra $$ for a decent place to hunt. I have a buddy that is 30-40% disabled with 2 bum shoulders that won't heal. Constant severe pain, but he soldiers on through it. I may see if he wants to get a guide license and do that. He lives to hunt, is a wealth of hunting/woods knowledge and a born mentor.
Naturally, it would require making smooth trails that could be wheel chair accessed, ground blinds, food plots, water holes etc to bring the deer in closer to the fewer places a disabled hunter could reach. Lot's of tractor opportunities there!
jb
rox
Veteran Member
John,
That's a real good idea. My aunt and late uncle in Ladysmith own 80 acers and my uncle always made it available for handicapped hunters. Jsut that and a few family members. He always felt good about that. As you say he had good trails and I don't lnow what else he did but it was used by handicapped hunters every year. Seeing as how my daughter has taught children with handicapps for 10 years I have a very soft spot for anything that gives persons with disabilites a chance to do things that we able bodied people are able to do. Your are a good man John!
